Nathasha Frangos of HaysMac

It's rare to find a firm with 650 people and just two offices that is still privately owned – the sort of firm that private equity firms would give their right arm for. 

It was therefore a great privilege to welcome Natasha Frangos of HaysMac onto the podcast.  Natasha shares what's behind their 65% organic growth in the last four years, their sector-specific strategies, their commitment to and progression of their team, and their level of team engagement. 

So why not go and dive into the podcast discussion with Natasha from HaysMac at your favourite podcast platform or at HumaniseTheNumbers.online.

Please scroll down the podcast’s episode page for the contact information for Natasha and for the additional, downloadable resources mentioned in the podcast.

Transcript

Introduction

0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series. Leaders, managers, and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes, and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results. We're about to launch our formal line manager training program. And I would say we've never had it properly documented. Like if you're a line manager, this is the journey you're going to be on. We've never really done that. We've now done that. And the training program will be um, so our L and Z team have put it together, they've done a brilliant job, and the contributions will come from a mix of internal but also bringing in external speakers, and it'll be anything from you know leaning into the difficult conversations, how to have really um meaningful um appraisal talks with people so that they actually know what where they stand and what goes next, what the next actions, um, inclusivity and how to navigate conversations around that and DEI. Um, with all of these things, whenever I do these like surveys, I'm like, well, right, what are the actions we're going to take? Like, how are we going to what comes next? Well, this is what the data says. What are the actions that come out of that? And so all of these are things, our action points that are falling out of our surveys and again and our and our feeling of what we need to do to improve. How could you grow your firm by 65% over the next four years? Well, if you follow the rules of thumb that show up across this podcast discussion with Tash Frangos of Hayes Mac, you'll be able to replicate what they've achieved over the last four years. Substantial growth, great stability, and a feeling of a highly engaged team. Let's dive into this podcast discussion with Tash now. Hello, I'm Tash Frangoss and I'm the managing partner of Haze Mac. Um, we are a firm of accountants and tax advisors and providing lots of other advisory services to ambitious businesses going to market through dedicated sectors, based in London and Cape Town. I have been in post for four years, I've been at the firm for 25, and so I clearly love it, and uh it keeps me on my toes. Um, and outside of work, I have three kids who I love spending time with, and um I what other things interest me? I love dancing, so love music, dancing in my kitchen with my kids is always a high. Love um yoga, do yoga once a week and have me do that for many years. It keeps me saying, it's my reset moment, and that's me. Brilliant, brilliant. Um, so you've just uh essentially reeled off uh uh me growing up with our four kids dancing around either in the car driving somewhere going loopy or uh dancing around in the kitchen. So be wary of what you're letting yourself in for there, Tash. Um and um and uh loving the yoga piece as well. I've just done uh 40 minutes of yoga this morning for exactly the same reason. Um you know, keep keeping me sane. Uh so Tash, just for context, would you give the bearing in mind that people that listen to this are the leaders and managers of accounting firms, um they'll all have heard of Hays Mac, but it'd be good just to get context in terms of scale, you know, the number of team members, nature of clients, and so on, just so we can put it into context. Yeah, absolutely. So we are about 650 people, um, split across two offices, London and Cape Town. We set Cape Town up about three years ago, and we're already at 70 plus people. Um, and we're about 75 million of revenue. So we're in the mid tier, but I'd say the type of client that we have for, we're we're competing against the top 10 regularly. I think that's just because like our presence in one office in London means that we can punch above our weight in terms of breadth of service that we're able to offer. Um, we're slightly unusual, I think, to other practices in that we are sector specialists from the moment you join. So we went down the sector route many, many years ago, like 15 years ago, um, and I headed up the creative media and tech team for nearly a decade, for example, and that was a role that I absolutely loved as the firm went on on that journey. And so because we've had all that time to embed that concept, now from the moment you join as a school lever or a grad, you uh come into one of those sectors in whatever department you're in. Of course, if you're in a smaller department, you we might be spreading you across more than one area of focus, um, but in our larger departments, that's what happens. And the aim of that really is that we're creating advisors that can speak to a client with the knowledge of what's going on in their sector, the key challenges, the key risks, which then hopefully also means a much more efficient and relevant um service to the client. Um, so and we've you know it's served us very well. So in the last four years as a business, we've grown 65% organically. Um, so all of our growth has been organic. We did one little inorganic um acquisition of a team earlier this year that you might have seen. Um, and our sectors are creative media and tech, financial services, hospitality, property, social purpose. And then what we found is this um kind of what other areas should we be expanding into as the business has grown, and a lot of our sectors came out of people's passions. So, for example, we didn't really have a presence in hospitality, but one of our partners was like, I love pups, and so I'm gonna go after that. Literally, that's what happened. And I was like, I love fashion, so I'm gonna win some brads. So, and so we've got people that love sport, and like now we've got a little sport incubator and fintech, and so kind of a lot of our growth has also come from areas that people are genuinely passionate about. No, brilliant. I love that. It's interesting, Tash. There's a firm we work with down in the southwest, and they're they're a only smaller, small firm, sub 10 million pantano firm, sub five million pantano firm, actually. Um, but they have grown fast, and it's partly because they've done what I think you've you're doing, which is tapping into the passion of your people. You know what you're really interested in. What do you really want to be uh because if you've got into their hearts, their emotional connection with what they're doing, you're gonna have a better team member doing a better work for better for your clients, aren't you? Um I completely agree. Yeah, yeah. So Tash, with your uh lifetime at Haze Maxx and the profession, which is amazing. Um what's um what's your interpretation of the phrase humanize the numbers?

What does Humanise The Numbers mean to you?

7:03

Um so for me it's uh you know, we are a service business, so ultimately it all comes down to the people, the people that we are hiring and developing and you know, um progressing through their career and the people that we're servicing, you know, our clients. And so you've got to focus the strategy and growth plans around those things, and and also actually the leaders, so the partners and the directors of the business. Um and then and so if you base your strategy and your culture around those elements, the numbers kind of are the output in a way, like they that means you have a successful business because you're creating a strategy and implementing actions centered around those three things, and then the financials are the dropout. Okay, so the inputs are uh the right people doing the right work, and the outputs are the numbers that uh deliver the results for the firm. But if we're in the conversation with the client, the numbers for the client. Client, exactly. So let me the the the strat I want to just step out of the strategy space, but I I I I see the context. Humans they work well together, deliver the numbers. Brilliant what about the input numbers that determine whether the it's working well for your people and your clients? The outcome numbers are financial, let's say, but there are input numbers that show you that it's going well for your 650 people and it's going well for your however many clients you've got. What what what what other KPIs, what other numbers are you uh taking seriously at HaysMAC?

Team engagement, DEI and retention numbers

8:56

Yeah, so for our people, we um recently actually did a staff engagement survey, um, and we had over 80% of the business engage with that, which was really pleasing given the size of people that we have, number of people that we have in the business. Um, and we were so pleased with the results. Um, you know, our engagement score was in the high 80s, which was 15 above the benchmark. It was up on the previous time we had run it. And to me, that says a lot because it though the engagement scores are all around kind of purpose and understanding why you're here at the firm, what your role is, um, and you kind of believe in what the the values of the business. Um, and so that I guess those are the numbers that I look at when I'm kind of trying to measure the success of what we're trying to achieve and how it's landing with our people. Um we also had a set of questions around sort of uh DEI, so you know, being able to speak up and feeling anyone in my like anyone in my team can succeed, regardless of background or where they've come from. That's was in the 90s, that response. So those are the numbers I look at when I'm assessing whether what we're doing is landing well. Um, we'll also look at retention and things like that, you know. Um we look at how many people have progressed internally. So we know like um more than half of our partners are homegrown. So the fact that we're able to retain our top talent and get them through um to leading the business is also a success factor that we'll use. Um yeah, so it it will be those um metrics that I will use to measure the success of what we're doing with our people. Um and I guess we have some external validation on that, which is also pleasing, more so for the team, really, in terms of you know, achieving DEI Champion of the Year last year. We were really proud to have got that, and that was a very um kind of collaborative effort in how we went about entering that award and progressing through each step. So there was a written submission, but then there was also like a panel session with like six experts in DEI, and I went along with two of our DEI team, and we we had to pitch, and then there was a 20-minute QA, and so it felt like like it was good, like you had to work to get this award, you know. And so it kind of meant even more when we won when we won it. Um, and then of course, having things like Sunday Times, best place to work, and having won that a couple of times in a row now is and again, that's a survey that our team responds. You know, we we're not involved in that, like we we enter as a firm, and then the link goes, as you know, to the team. So these are the points that I will use to kind of assess what we're doing and is it working or not, as well as of course, like talking to people. So the way we're set up in the business, we're like all open plan, you know, the partners are on the floor with the team. Anyone can, we're very accessible, and I think that's so important in a modern professional services firm. Um, and you just you get a feel, don't you? When you're on the floor, you get a feel of what the vibe is like, and then you're able to respond very quickly to areas of concern. Um so yeah, you pick up on the feeling. Brilliant, brilliant. So it's um it's interesting. There's a phrase, I think it comes from uh Rom Ron Bake. It's it's it's there's we tend to get obsessed with the numbers that are easy to manage rather than the numbers that are hard to manage. And it's and so, well, how do you how do you put a number on how it's feeling? Well, you you don't, do you? It's that's just not where it's at. But you do have indicators that help confirm the feeling or maybe undermine the feeling, which means you want to look a bit deeper. So, team engagement, 80% of the team giving the firm a score of 80% engagement. That's um that's sort of feeling knocking it out of the park, yeah. It's knocking it out of the park territory, that is. Um, because we we run engagement um processes, uh we use the Galax Q12 approach, um, and it just gives us a reference point for the we've got about knocking on the door of 70 firms now who've gone through that process, and um we've got we've got I've we've got a firm who's gone sort of 82, 86, 87, they they they're up in that uh category. Um and another couple of firms in the 70s, but then the vast majority of firms are uh you know significantly uh below that, and the uh the mean the average for the surveys we've got is about 35, 36. So um yeah, it's um but it I think what's more important than that is actually the progression that the firms make when they take it seriously, and so you know, there's we've got one story firm with a score of 24 out of 100, 24 percent, um, drives that up to 68 in just 18 months because they then do what you guys are doing, which is taking the team interaction, involvement, engagement deadly seriously. Um but can I ask you about uh there's no immediate payoff, is there, Tash, to investing time, effort, energy in uh growing that highly engaged team, which requires time and money invested in them. I'm just wondering what the conversations are like at you know C-suite board level about you know investing in the team where you're all you're really going to get is a long-term numbers payoff, not a short-term numbers payoff.

Why investing in people is non negotiable

14:48

Um, how um how do those conversations go? What's the tone of that within the payment? That's a really good question. Um, I guess we're we have um as a and you all know this probably from reading about us, but we remain one of the few partner-owned businesses, and you know our intention is that we continue in that way. So if we are going to be successful in being able to do that, um, well, the only way bluntly that we'll be able to do that is if we carry on bringing through top talent to be the leaders of tomorrow. So, so to your point, it's not actually up for much debate around that table because otherwise you put to risk the future of the business. That's like how we see it. Um, and all the part like you know, that's I guess why we stayed around so long, so many of us, because we've all had felt that in this firm. You know, I felt very supported, and you know, there was a point in my career when I went interviewed in a larger firm. I remember they wanting me to be the head of tech, and I just didn't proceed with the process because um I thought actually, you know, I've been in the environment where I've I feel a sense of autonomy, I've got space to grow, I've got space to try new things, and it was okay for me not to, you know, succeed in all of those new things that I'm trying, and that counts for a lot, actually. And why would I want to have to go away and and put time in rebuilding that level of trust and autonomy to get the sense of autonomy that I was feeling and trust, and so that's kind of what's also kept me. And I think if we it's important that we re keep that sense as we grow our numbers, and that will be the challenge for us, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a um I uh that uh it just reminded me of the there's a piece of uh and it it sort of squirreled away somewhere in the Gallup research. Uh I mean there's something like 180,000 organisations have contributed data to the Gallup team engagement stuff. Um and there's squirreled away in their research is that um uh the long-term teams, long-standing teams, stable teams are the ones that typically drive higher team engagement numbers. And it's it's relevant because the other the other part is team engagement also delivers financial results in the long term. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. We're just building out a report of all the surveys that we've got once we've got permission from everyone. Um when we've got that, I'll I'll send you a copy so you can have a gandra. Yeah, I'd love to see that. If you need to uh if you want to chew the fat about that, then just let me know. Um, brilliant. So um it's not a debate, it's actually the long-term future of the firm is we're not a PE back firm, we're a partner-led firm, uh, we've got to grow our own, and therefore you've got to create an environment where A, people want to stay and people want to perform, and if they're high-quality people, they'll need autonomy. But not everybody wants autonomy. Um, just uh yeah, you know, people some people want to be told what to do, don't they? How do you how do you um how do you balance that? Yeah, um, and that's also a really good question because of course you need structure and process and a framework in a way. So it's autonomy within a framework, and to your point, it's not for everyone, actually. And it could be that someone doesn't really know what to do with that sort of freedom, and so it ends up just being a bit of a waste. Um, so it is there for the people who want it. So, and that how do you know the people that want it? Well, that comes back to the right line management and those line management managers identifying the people who want to give something a go, have that sort of hunger to try something different, and then putting in a support framework around them to enable them to do that to test it. Um, but also sometimes it doesn't always go to plan, and so it's also then being able to have the difficult conversation with someone that actually we've given this a go and it hasn't worked out, and actually your time will be better spent doing X, for example. So

Autonomy with structure, process and framework

19:29

it is difficult to manage. I agree with you, it can be. Um, and you know, you've of course got to make it fair so that everybody has access to that opportunity should they want it, and it's not just the loudest voices, so that's also a challenge, right? Yeah, because that's that we're back into the DEI space, aren't we? In terms of you know, there's the noisy ones like me. I'm not sure where you'd put yourself on that. That's why you turned me down, Paul, remember? Volume-wise, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, that was yeah, yeah, that was uh uh Joe the Cyber Engineer earlier who's very disappointed that she was turned down. Um very funny. Um but it's interesting the uh that fairness piece because you've just triggered and there's another massive people survey by it's an old one by the Sorota group, which I've mentioned a number of times on this pod with other people, but um something like 13.6 million employee surveys across South Africa, Europe, and the US. Big study um showing that the the the foundation of a highly motivated, highly engaged team is fairness. Um I'm just wondering what frameworks and processes in a team of 652 officers at the opposite side of the world. What are what are the key insights or key frameworks or key processes that spring to mind, Tash, that have pays back building fairness into what's going on in the business? I think one thing that's worked, um there's a few things actually. So uh one bit that's very well established and has worked well is the fact that you're in a department, so you've kind of got a group of leaders who are the same sort of discipline as you. I are also tax people or audit people, but then you're also in a sector, and so you've got another set of leaders who are showing you a different way with you know of how to show up in a market and how to sell a bundle of services to a client and things like that. And so I guess having those two very different forums creates visibility and multiple touch points for people to kind of put their hand up or raise a voice, raise their voice, or share a view. Um, so I'd say that structure has helped facilitate some of the growth and trying new things that we look. Form that people want to try. Um, we've got then got

How do you build fairness into the business?

22:06

career pathways, so we've kind of documented in most of the firm. We're still doing this in some of our smaller departments because it came out very strongly in our staff engagement survey in November that the departments, and Audit was the largest one that's done this, um, which is our largest department, had introduced his career pathways, and there's the score for them on um from their teams on like I know what I need to do to succeed in my career, I know what to do to get ahead, that was so much higher where it had been properly documented, like to get to the next level, these are the skills that we're looking for, not just from a technical perspective, which we'd mapped across the firm, but also from a soft skills perspective. And so because it's been well so well received there, rolling it out to the other departments. Brilliant. So that's another framework, I guess. Um, and then the like the line management framework of so we have something called talk, where the line managers will meet with their um in people periodically in the year, and um what they'll discuss like you know, openly this is where we you are, how things you know, and then what do you need to do to get to the next stage? So I guess there's a number of different forums where people have the opportunity to have that conversation, but it's but to your point, it is probably still quite informal, you know. Right, yeah, and it is dependent on conversations happening. Oh, okay. So there is a risk that you miss people because it's so dependent on conversations happening and somebody coming forward and feeling comfortable in voicing their view. Yeah, so it's um but I mean the creating an environment where that feels psychologically safe so that you can speak out, you can step into a conversation is is a sort of values-based, behavioural, standards-based thing. I'm wondering how how do you how do you develop your managers and leaders to nurture those psychologically safe conversations, Tash? Because that that that's behind ultimately, you know. Yeah, we can go hunting for the right feeling in the right on the floor, in the sector team, in the service line team, and so on. Bottom line is, and this again, I'm sorry to keep referencing the Gallo Q12, but they say that 70% of the impact on driving team engagement's down to the capabilities of the leaders and managers when they engage and interact with the team. So interesting, but it's such a high percentage. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I shouldn't be surprised because of course it would be, but to have the data point is great, okay? Yeah, yeah. And so it then triggers, okay. So, what's going on at Hays Mac around developing the knowledge is one thing, and knowledge is free, and with you know,

Psychological safety starts with the managers

25:05

Claude and Grok and Chat Jeep, it's all there, you know. Um, it was always there with just Google, but it's it was harder to find, it's now easy to find. But it's it's the skill and the mindset of the managers. What's going on in Hays Mac to build the skill and mindset of managers and leaders so that they create those conversations, create the feeling, and actually uh take deadly serious this team progression, team growth piece. What's going on? Yeah, so um we have just for we're about to launch our form or line manager training program, and I would say we've never had it properly documented. Like if you're a line manager, this is the journey you're gonna be on. We've never really done that. We've now done that, and the training program will be um, so our L and Z team have put it together, they've done a brilliant job, and the contributions will come from a mix of internal but also bringing in external speakers, and it'll be anything from you know leaning into the difficult conversations, how to have really um meaningful um appraisal talks with people so that they actually know what where they stand and what goes next, what the next actions, um, inclusivity and how to navigate conversations around that and DEI. Um so we are um we've we've put a that's something that we've made put more structure around. It felt like it was too hit and miss. Like we had some brilliant line managers, we had some that found it more difficult to line manage people for and so we get like and we saw that in the results again. And so, with all of these things, whenever I do these like in surveys, I'm like, well, right, what are the actions we're gonna take? Like, how are we going to what comes next? Well, this is what the data says. What are the actions that come out of that? And so all of these are things, our action points that are falling out of our surveys, and again, and our and our feeling of what we need to do to improve. I love that. That's um the the numbers are one thing, and it just you know, back into that, you know, humanize the numbers, what does it mean? Well, yeah, numbers, KPIs, output results. But uh, what's the point of the measurement? The point is it drives a decision, it drives some action that moves the needle, isn't it? That's yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and our team have gone to the effort of sharing their views, so let's respect that and respond, you know, show them that we've listened, and this is what we're gonna do in response to that. Yeah, yeah. Um sounds as though you're running the perfect firm, Tash. Oh, I don't know, but I don't think so. No, no, definitely not. There's plenty that's okay. Okay, well let's let's let's just go there. So, what what's grinding you wheels that um and and and this is my sort of uh once you've got this question up there, I want to drop into the client space a little bit, but let's just in that um if you I I have this phrase if you don't grow your people, you won't grow your firm. So, you know, it's like right, we've got to grow 650 people every quarter, every year, so that they all feel as though they've made some progress in some way, shape, or form. That's a big ask. Um, but it's certainly you've got the people, framework, structures, training, uh, KPIs all showing up to sponsor that, which sounds well, hence you're getting such a good engagement score. But what's um what's holding Hayes Mac back from achieving greater things, do you think? Um probably in the people space, in the in your people space. Yeah, I would like us to be further along in our L and D journey. Um so, and what I mean by that is I mean, it's brilliant that we've done this um line manager framework now. Um, but I feel like there's so much to do on equipping our team with how to use AI and automation tools. Um, and I guess my view on that is we aren't going to have the pockets of the top 10, like the deep pockets of the top 10, but the way we're set up, we should be able to move quicker than them because we're a much simpler business, like we are two locations basically. Um and so that's the bit that um where sometimes I my and my and I'll talk about it with my management team, is like we we need to be moving quicker on these things because um

What is holding HaysMac back from achieving greater things?

29:42

we I know we don't have the maybe the uh um capital uh uh in benefit over some of those larger firms, but we should be able to make a decision quicker and then put that and implement it throughout the business. And so I'd like us to get in over the next 12 months. My ambition is that we have rolled out a set of like a standard training uh so that everyone is using like co-pilot daily in everything they do to a certain level, like as a fundamental, regardless of who you are, what you who what grade you are, you know, there's a certain level minimum that everyone is using it to, and that's how you're going to start to shift the dial in how our team engage with this because it's like it's here and present, it's already changing what we're doing. Yeah, yeah, massively. Um and and that's the I think the profession, I'd like your view on this. Maybe the profession's struggling a little bit with this sense of we need to control this. You know, there's gotta be controls like like top-down controls that hold the reins of this monster called AI, um, which is in uh absolute uh polar opposition to the how do you tap into the initiative innovation improvement of 650 people in your case? Well, they've got to be the self-generating some of the changes in innovation, which is uh it's a tough ask in an accounting setting, I think. Um we've been uh we've been working with some firms in uh in and around this. What's this? You know, if the profession is top-down improvement culture, uh it moves slow. If it's bottom up, or you've got 650 nudging the uh nudging the needle in a 1% per week or 1% per month basis, you're gonna radically um tap into a their sense of autonomy, wanted to be part of something, sense of achievement, sense of fairness. Um, but there's that control piece, is that something that you feel as though you might be butting up against a little bit in this AI? Yeah, there's a bit of friction there. I agree, there's friction there for sure. And and I'm aware of it, um, and I'm sensitive to it,

AI adoption with control but pace

31:56

like because obviously we're a regulated business and we deliver regulated services. So, of course, the framework and structure around it is really important and the controls and making sure. So, you know, in terms of encouraging how people you people using it to a certain degree, we've also got to make sure we've trained people to be able to use it responsibly, like to be aware of what they can and can't use it for. Um, so the two come hand in hand, I agree with you, but I I do think that having this experimentation uh in the on the floor is a way to move faster, and so be creating a space, a safe space to be able to do that. Um we've got an AI community, which is like the people that you're talking about have and expressed an interest in this in their relevant departments, and there are things that they are trying. So, I guess the way we are going on this journey is by using third-party developers because we're not going to have our own development team, you know. But but we do have people that are genuinely passionate about this area and are wanting to engage with you know potential tool providers, and so that's you know, so they're encouraged to have those conversations, and then we have like our AI committee, which would include like our InfoSec, our change, our head of audit compliance is audit, for example, and then they almost act as like the triage stroke filter, but also the kind of ones to join the dots. Oh, you're doing something over here in private client. Well, that's similar to something that we're looking at over here in business tax. We should just use this tool over here, sort of thing. So they're kind of also acting as the joining the dots kind of forum. Oh brilliant, yeah. Facilitation almost, yeah. How curious, I'm now curious. How often do they get together, Tash? So they had started as quarterly, the AI committee, but it's not frequent enough, so I think they're gonna move to every two months. And as an MT, we're like literally talking about it every fortnight at the moment. Like I've already and well, weekly, it is so it is in every conversation at the moment. I was with our CR fractural CIO this week. We were talking about this, so yeah, I was with one of our private clients, senior managers. I was talking about what this this um insight that this tool is going to give us in if you put certain client data into it and the power of that. So it's almost getting to for me, it's a weekly conversation with different people in the business. Yeah, brilliant. I was that's what I was hoping you'd respond with because the rate of change in this space is nuts. It is just and therefore, if we've got a courtly committee on AI, we're just being left behind. We're we're left being left behind. Um, you know, I've been in denial. I had you know, hands up, not not denial because I'm in the human space. You know, how do you get the best out of your people space? Uh well, now you get your best out of your people by working out how to link them up with AI in such a way that um they are loving their jobs more, doing a better job for clients, and probably saving a shed load of time as well. Um which is where it's at so um let's just go okay, humanise the numbers from a client perspective. What's um what are Hays Mac brilliant at in terms of humanising that piece between your firm and your clients? Our clients, so I are I'm so proud of the we all are of the sectors that we've created, basically. And what I mean by that is the community of clients that you know our clients love the community that that brings them into. So if you just see on our you could just go to our LinkedIn, you'll see the interviews that we're having with clients in hospitality and the events that we do for pubs and restaurants. We did a brilliant retail and e-commerce uh breakfast of a couple of weeks ago. And so what the what the sectors have enabled is uh for us to create a community where our clients could come and meet their peers, and I think that is hugely valuable for them, and they and that's keeps them with us, it it helps them develop relationships and um it helps them also think about their business and take away ideas to implement from hearing from engaging

Building a client community through the sectors

36:29

with peers. Brilliant. So in the sort of macro space, um, I'm in the hospitality sector, I'm gonna I'm getting notified of uh interviews, case I've I've checked obviously check your website, case studies, you know, success pieces, events, um uh on a fairly regular basis. That's oh, I'm actually in the right, I feel as though I'm in the right space. So you're creating that, which means okay, so you're clearly investing time and money to make those things happen, um, which builds client loyalty, I'm guessing, uh, but also uh creates a reputation in that sector to entice people or the clients to join you. Does it work? Yeah, it does. Um, so the fact that we I guess our growth probably suggests that it does work, it really does, doesn't it? Well spotted, yeah, yeah, very good. Um yeah, and we also do like this lovely um summer party bisector. We've got a lovely rooftop in our office, we're very lucky to have it, and we get access to that uh to use for events and a certain number of times a year. So we're able to do one per sector. And we were with someone um yesterday who is new to us, like I'd only just is an exited entrepreneur from a fantastic media business, and that's one of our sectors. And so he's coming in to have a chat. And um, I was asking him, like, and I was with our head of media marketing advertising, we were asking him, Oh, had you heard of the firm? He goes, Well, not until because we were on a panel together. So he goes, like, not the first time was when we were on this panel together, Tash. But then he goes, and now, like, I was just with a former colleague at the business that he'd exited, and he was like, Yeah, I've heard of them. I'm going to their summer party. So you know, you're like, Yeah, it's kind of like out there in the sector now. It's like, so he's like, Where's my invite? It's like, okay, well, it depends on how you do in this uh meeting we're about to have, and then you can get your invites on the summer party using it as a uh as a stick or a bribe to get them in. No, very good. Yeah, so but what what what about in what about in the uh sort of one-to-one space, you know, one one client, you know, one client manager, direct partner. What what what's um where's your where's your uh superpower in that? Because you know, everyone says across the whole press and have done for forever, you know, it's a relationship business. You started this podcast, it's a relationship business. Um, and so it's it's not the relationship so much with Hayes Mac, it's the relationship with you know one of the partners in the audit team or the tax team and so on. So what what what what are you doing to um bring that to the fore? What where's where's Haze Mac superpower there? Yeah, so um I think that's again the way we're set up lends itself to being really accessible to our clients uh um too. So um they will have their key point of contact, and that it might be two for the larger accounts, it might be a partner and a director, for example, and so those will be the people that they go to for everything. Um, but then the fact that we are essentially all on one floor at present, soon to be two as we expand, uh, and then or in Cape Town, you we're all very accessible, so you could just get onto a call with the relevant specialist um should you need to, essentially, if the if a client is going through a particular change or wants to discuss um a new tax legislation, it's all easy. You just go to your main point of contact, they could then bring in the relevant expertise. We launched something called um my tax partner um about 18 months ago now, and again, you'll be able to see that on our website, and that's all about sort of put taking our breadth of experience and expertise across tax and almost bringing that to the client without needing there to be an issue. So we we for our larger accounts or the ones that are going through a lot of change, you almost act as an extension to their team as this tax sounding board. And we will take, you know, maybe it's someone in VAT, maybe it's someone in RD, maybe someone in Share Schemes, or maybe it's someone in court in transaction services because they're thinking of getting ready for an exit, and we'll just meet with them periodically every quarter. And what we're able to do in that instance is kind of just have a conversation around what's what's coming up with the business, um, and for us to suggest things that they need to think about, but also we'll go armed with well, this is what we're seeing in other clients in this sector, and this is how they're navigating it, or it might

Proactive advice with "My Tax Partner"

41:22

be an opportunity for you to look at this. So it kind of enables a two-way conversation, um, but not necessarily because there is an agenda, it's just a way of keeping in touch. Yeah, it's it's almost as if you're in you're trying to trigger and stimulate a worthwhile conversation because you're coming from a police place of care. I'm I'm reinterpreting what you're saying here, so put me right if you think I'm wrong. Yeah. You genuinely care, and actually, you know, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? You you you're trying to rattle the cage a little bit, just make sure that um you're not just responding to the incoming inquiries from clients, you're actually triggering and prompting the others to say, okay, just trying to get on the front foot exactly and seeing how we might be able to spot an opportunity that they hadn't seen, or you know, um just deliver some added some more value um out of the relationship that they've got with us. And you're right, because ultimately we are incredibly passionate about the clients that we've got. You know, it's been an absolute privilege to have supported some of the clients that I've seen go on and achieve amazing things, and so just being part of that journey, being having access to those businesses and those business leaders is a real privilege, and we have that as accountants, and so therefore, it's making the most of that um relationship, and we're gonna have to do that more and more, actually. That is what we what our roles are going to be, and it's just gonna start a lot earlier in someone's career, yeah. Uh, and I think gonna start a lot earlier in terms of scale of business as well, because the you know the technology. I agree, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's um um I I I I'm of the firm opinion that you know the the the profession's role is one of uh interpreting business intelligence to help clients make better decisions, and and and and we've been anchored in the profession at the you know, yeah, let's generate reports, whether it be a tax, audit, you know, court finance, what you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But actually it's uh elevating that so that the value perception is greater when you're helping them making decisions. Um completely agree. I want to be respectful of time here, so I'll just a couple couple more questions if that's all right, Tasha, and then we'll uh we'll we'll we'll help you leave. Um client care, key to client loyalty. What client care KPIs do you track at Hays Mac? So we are we did a client care survey a couple of years ago, actually, um more than that. Um and we are going to do one again this year, basically. So we lent Into um, we looked at like the the questions we asked were it was around like technical expertise, responsiveness, value for money, um awareness of range of services. We asked around like access to partner in their key account leads, if you know what I mean. Um understanding their industry. Um, did they feel that we were connecting them sufficiently with other people in their sector? Um so we are so those were the kind of questions that we asked, and the what the what came out of that, and I wrote to everyone after it actually to thank them for taking part. Again, we had a really good engagement. Um, and I spoke about the things that we were pleased to have

KPIs, client survey and the client care charter

44:51

had uh really positive responses on, which was around um the sector expertise was came out so high, the technical, of course, thank goodness. Um the value for money was a good one. But the areas that they wanted us to improve on was actually knowing who was going to come back to me. Like if I'm emailing a group of you, like who is gonna be the one that is gonna pick it up and run with it, and how and making sure that they were um like getting the response from the right person, but also in the right amount of time. Yeah. And the results were mixed on that. And so we what did we do on the back of that? We introduced a client charter um where we sort of set out and we trained everyone, like we rolled it out in all the across the firm, but also in each of the departments, um, in terms of like so when an email comes in, if there's like five of us on it, this is the order in which, like, this is who needs to pick it up in this order of responsibility. We expect to go back to every client within 24 hours, even if it is just a holding email, just to let them know we've got it. Um I will come back to you in more detail with a fuller response. So we and I kind of said this, these are the areas, this is what we're doing in response to what you have asked us to look at. Yeah. Um, and so we're gonna run the it again this year, and obviously we've been running with that sort of client care charter now for a couple of years. So I'm hoping that we're gonna see an improvement and an impact of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you do you just just because I I think the devil's always in the detail in this client care space, uh, do you track and measure the response to calls and response to emails in 24 hours? Have you got KPIs across your manager team so you can see who is and who's no, but no, it's a really good no, we're still manual, like it's still based on us, but that's where tech should be able to help, shouldn't it? Like an API. Copilot can tell you. Yeah, co-pilot can tell you. Exactly. Well, on the email side anyway, yeah, it just depends what your phone system and how that works. But um uh no, very good. Um I think that's a great place, it's a great example of where AI could help on something like this. Uh and deliver the numbers that helps you better humanise what you're doing as a firm and therefore deliver greater value. Yes, Paul, I'm taking that away. Smashed it out of the park, very good. Very good. Uh so Tash, uh last question, then we'll uh we'll we'll um unfortunately let you go. Um what what aspect of this conversation we've had today has triggered something in your head that um so this is an input that might trigger a thought or a decision or a greater investigation? What what what have we talked about today that stood out for you that's going, all right, I need to do something more here, or I need to do something less here if it's a negative, for example. What's uh what's triggered you the most? Um this last bit here, like this thing on tracking, like how are you actually gonna measure that people around the organization are doing this for our clients? I love that. I'm gonna say that's a conversation that I'll be taking away. Right, cool. Um, and how we can use tech to help to enable us to do that. To do that, right. Yeah, Brent. I was working with just just so I can chip into that, I was working with a bunch of managers yesterday. We run this, you know, managed development programs for firms, and um, we had the follow-up team school to the workshop session we'd done recently, and that was about KPIs. And there's two types of KPIs, inputs and outputs. So the client surveys an output KPI, which you can use and actually it drives decision making retrospectively. The input KPIs are activity-based inputs. Um, like we are hitting a

Input KPIs without the stick

48:41

you know, 94% of all emails were responded to in 24 hours or less. That's an input KPI because that's driving from the client's perspective what they're going to put in your survey when you next send it to them. And you know, the key moment of truth in every relationship with every client and their accountant is the core meetings that they have with the accountant, whether it be on Teams or face-to-face handshaped meeting in a meeting room. Um, and it's what are the quantity of those and the quality of those are input numbers. Uh, but how do we how do we introduce those numbers so that they don't look like a stick to beat people with? Is was the key question that came out of the managers yesterday uh yesterday uh yesterday, isn't it? Isn't it? Um and the conclusion we all reached was we've got to involve the team in actually building out what those input KPIs are because if we inflict them on them, they will look like it's an accountability stick rather than a scoreboard that creates a sense of achievement. So there's some sensitivity there. So I just wanted to chip uh some insight. Yeah, I that's it that's a great thought. We should, yeah, that's a great thought and one to absolutely factor into this conversation. Um, and if you know, because you've invested your time in this pod today, if you know, if you if you want to dive into that in more detail, at uh then just please please just uh get in touch with Kelly and we'll let you set up. I'd be more than happy to do that. Because this numbers and humans thing is that's our that's our space, that's what we love for, and it's it's where you can turn the tap on, move the lever, move the needle to deliver the results. Um I'd love another hour to be honest, but uh we've got to be respectful. I really appreciate you um uh taking time out to be with us. I know we had a few tech issues at the beginning, but you've you you styled that out brilliantly with Joe, our sound engineer. Uh can't thank you enough. Really appreciate your time, effort, and energy today. Thank you. Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've love meeting you and Joe, and thank you very much for having me. Oh, it was great to have Tash on the podcast, and there was so much more I wanted to ask, so I'm going to do everything I can to uh encourage Tash to come back another day. But we've just finished off talking about input and output KPIs, activity and performance or results KPIs. If you want more on how you can put KPIs to work in your firm, check out the business breakthrough report and you'll find it in the show notes. Uh actually, we'll also put in the show notes the business breakthrough report that unpacks the Sorota study on a highly motivated, highly enthusiastic team, plus another business breakthrough on team engagement so you can tap into those insights as well. Clearly, the core of Hays Mac success is this commitment to a team first approach. It works for the team and the team will deliver for your clients. And that's fundamentally what the Accountants Growth Academy is all about. It's about working alongside in workshops with fellow ambitious accountants who want to transform their results. If you want to know more about the Accountants Growth Academy, check out the link in the show notes. You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanizethenumbers.online. You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a brilliant podcast with Stacey Barr, an expert in KPIs, which every accountant should take seriously. If you like what you're hearing and you want to go to the full podcast, please go to humanize the numbers.online or go to your favorite podcast platform. Because KPIs give us what nothing else can. There are no other anecdotes or um hearsay or stories or anything that can be as convincing as a number. Humans are not very good at tracking things through time, right? We're we're kind of more immediate. We can't tell how much something has changed over the last two to five five years. We also uh have biases in where we put our attention. So often there'll be things numbers can tell us that we never can see with our eyes or ears, just by kind of hunting around and and finding out. So numbers give us kind of like a well, you I said I like motorcycles, right? So I like working on motorcycles as well. Um we can't work on motorcycles with our bare hands, right? We can't. We need spanners and screwdrivers, ratchets. Um sometimes you need a hammer. You don't want to ever use a hammer, but maybe sometimes you need so the tools are helping us do with that motorcycle what we can't do any other way. And that's what numbers are like in our business. They they do things for us that we can't do any other way. The anecdotes that tell me that this is all true, that measurement really does make a difference, is how excited I see people when I've just facilitated them through creating their first meaningful KPI that they feel incredible ownership of. They go, yes, this is what this is about. This is what matters to us, and yes, we really want to make this thing shift. And they go and they get the data and they put it in a graph and they get so excited to see signals and and to make clearer decisions. So they're the kind of stories I hear over and over again. Um, and yeah, they're unfortunately they're the subjective anecdotal stuff. Well, maybe not unfortunately. I'd I'd like it to be quantitative as well, but the stories still do matter.