Martin Wardle of TH Ward

What persuaded Martin Wardle to give up a partnership in one of the fastest growing firms in the Northeast to start his own business, not in general accountancy, but as a specialist tax boutique focusing only on tax returns. 

What were the triggers for that event happening? 

In the course of this podcast with Martin Wardle of TH WARD, we cover a lot of ground, including the pace of technology and where Martin sees the future of accountancy going. He also tells some great stories about the significant impacts he's had on clients that he's worked with over the years, and he shares a lot about what he's learned, both about himself and about the profession. 

This is one not to miss. If you can, join us at HumaniseTheNumbers.online or wherever you get your podcasts. 

Please scroll down the podcast’s episode page for the contact information for Martin and for the additional, downloadable resources mentioned in the podcast.

Transcript

Paul Shrimpling 0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series. Leaders, managers, and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes, and issues that'll challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Martin Wardle 0:21

Well, I still get loads of texts, WhatsApps, emails from clients who ask me questions. They absolutely could have asked ChatGPT to answer. Now, on any given day, I'll get asked about some really obscure things and some everyday normal things. And it might be, you know, a tenant has broken a window, I've repaired it. Is that an allowable repair? Probably not, but you like that kind of low level, which is very easy to answer. Google already would have answered that, but ChatGPT definitely would have got that right. Um, and yet they don't. They message me, they ask me. Um, and I so so you know, I don't know what the factory owners and the the the factory workers felt like when looms came into existence. But they probably all thought, well, we're all gonna be out of a job doing nothing. There were still people running factories, making clothes and rugs and all those other things, they just did it in a different way, you know. Um and and and and there were still there's there's still people who want handmade rug. That that that that analogy probably didn't land. We used to make shoes by hand back in the day, and there's still a little audience that still wants those handmade shoes, if that makes any sense at all. I'm the handmade shoe guy.

Introduction

Doug Aitken 1:45

When you've worked literally man and boy in the same accountancy firm for 32 years, what triggers you to move and take a leap into the unknown and start your own business? In this podcast with Martin Wardle of TH Ward, you'll hear how Martin did exactly that. He took the bold decision to set up on his own, being very comfortable in the position that he was. Let's go to that podcast now.

Martin Wardle 2:13

Hi, I'm Martin. I'm a charter tax advisor. I've been in accountancy for 32, 33 years now, having started as a 16-year-old YTS back in the day. Um, I've been uh directing a large local firm, but I've set up on my own as of April, so that's my brief journey.

Doug Aitken 2:33

Oh, wow. Set up on your own. So okay. And in the northeast, obviously, Martin is a big clue in the accent, says the broad Scott, of course. There's a big clue of where I'm from as well.

Martin Wardle 2:44

Yeah, yeah. Kin kindred spirits.

Doug Aitken 2:48

Absolutely, yeah. So um tell us about starting as a YTS person. That was a that's a blast from the past, the YTS scheme.

Martin Wardle 2:57

Yeah, so most modern people, most younger people, Doug, not modern people, younger people probably don't even know what a YTS is. Use a training scheme. Um, I suppose the current equivalent is the apprenticeship scheme. Um, so basically, I left school at 16. Um uh I want to say £29.50 was my pay for 40 hours work back then. Um and yeah, I would I was doing like a B tech in business administration, business finance, something like that, whilst working four days a week. So very similar to the apprenticeship scheme. Um and I and that that was my original entry into accountancy, and I did that for a couple of years, and then you kind of you you graduate or you finish the course, and hopefully you get offered a job. And I was lucky enough to get offered a job, and then I I went right through the ranks there up to director and part owner. So, yeah.

Doug Aitken 3:51

Yeah, fab. What was the name of the firm you were with, Mart?

Martin Wardle 3:55

So that was Robson Laidler. I was at Robson Laidler for 32 years. Um, all all apart I left I left for a couple of years in the 90s. I I did my ATT, got my head turned, went somewhere else, and then got asked to go back. And then uh yeah, but apart from a couple of years, I was there for 32 years.

Doug Aitken 4:12

Wow, long time to commit. Mind you, um saying that I was 22 years in RBS before I started my second career dealing with accountants all the time. Um, time flies when you're having fun, absolutely.

Martin Wardle 4:28

Do you prefer dealing with accountants or bankers?

Doug Aitken 4:31

Um, accountants all day long.

Martin Wardle 4:35

Oh, you have to say that.

Doug Aitken 4:37

Well, yeah, in all seriousness, Martin, it was funny. I used to believe when I was at the bank that we had the best relationship with clients until I discovered um accountants and realized I was kidding myself on you know, anything that got done was uh had to be run by the accountant first. So I realized that I was just part of the professional group, but the accountant sat at the middle of it every time. Uh so yeah, really opened my eyes to it.

Martin Wardle 5:08

I think that's how it should it it it should be like that, really. I think um, and I think the businesses that do the best have that relationship as their primary relationship. So I'm I'm a tax advisor, so I'm not quite an accountant, but um I do I do know that our biggest clients all had really good close relationships with their accounts partners.

Doug Aitken 5:28

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 5:29

There's there's no way around it.

Doug Aitken 5:31

Yeah, and and we're not at the confessional part yet, Martin. So save your um confession about being a tax advisor.

Martin Wardle 5:38

We'll come back to that. Proud, proud proud tax advisor. Hold on.

Doug Aitken 5:43

Absolutely.

Martin Wardle 5:44

I I get offended if people call me an accountant. Sorry, listeners.

Doug Aitken 5:47

Oh, well, there you go.

What does Humanise The Numbers mean to you?

Martin Wardle 5:50

I'm not just a mere generalist.

Doug Aitken 5:52

So I'm going to ask uh what might appear a trite question, Martin, but um, and you can tackle this at whatever angle you want. And it's around um our core purpose of humanize the numbers. Um, we always ask, like to ask guests what they take from that. So I'm really interested in your interpretation of what does humanize the numbers mean to you?

Martin Wardle 6:18

Pro probably at its simplest, it's it's a reference to the fact that behind the stats and the pure number there is a story, and the story is the human side.

Doug Aitken 6:32

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 6:32

I'm happy to expand or or go on on that one.

Doug Aitken 6:34

Yeah, but by all means do that, yeah.

Martin Wardle 6:37

You know, I mean I I I so as a tax advisor, I would I would only do the exciting bits normally, but sometimes I would have to sit in and listen to the accountants drone on about the year end accounts. Um and but in and I say that only half-jokingly because you know, you if you get that meeting wrong as an accountant, you kind of go, Oh, well, you know, your sales were up 12%, yeah, marketing costs are down, you've got new, I don't know, wages, so that's in there, and blah, blah, blah. And they already know that, they already know what they're spending on these things. What what what the exciting part of the meeting was, and what are you planning? What's going on, what do we need to know about you, how's the family, all of those things. That was much more interesting. And the client would come alive at that point, having been relatively not that interested in the pure numbers, you know.

Doug Aitken 7:28

Yeah, yeah, great. Um, if I've heard you right, uh we're almost a storyteller, in a way. Um uh does that does that figure, does that tally with um what what you were saying?

Martin Wardle 7:42

Yeah, so uh I I think not just the storytelling, but helping to write the story as well, uh um, which which is slightly different. So I think the storytelling is you know, you're almost like retelling the story of what's happened and then helping to craft the story going forward, you know. So each year you're joining. This sounds really corny, Doug and I put you started with the story kind of analogy, but you're almost picking up at the end of a chapter is the end of each year or end of a section or an event in a client or a business life. And I suppose you're looking over what happened, you're doing the editing on the on the on the last chapter, and you're helping to define where the next chapter should go, you know. So, yeah, definitely. And and and and and the point is there's more than just numbers. Businesses aren't just numbers.

Doug Aitken 8:30

Yeah, yeah. It's the human side of it that brings it to life, isn't it? Um which is very much where where we come from, too. There's always a human angle to what we're doing, and inevitably it's around helping business owners achieve the financial freedom that they want, the um the firm that they've always wanted, the clients they've always wanted, and the team. Um so tell me about your time at Robson Laidler. I mean, that's a it's uh an interesting move to go all the way through the ranks. What was the what were the highs and lows of of your time there?

Martin Wardle 9:08

Wow. Well, there was a lot happened over over you know 32 years. But so I I can remember back when I started, Doug, and I'm sure I'm you know I'm sure I'm not uh not offended here to say you can probably remember similar days.

Doug Aitken 9:21

Yeah, yeah.

Martin Wardle 9:22

But back in the early 90s, you just did what you were told. There was none of this, you know, it wasn't a work and relationship, it wasn't it wasn't a two-way thing, it was just you went to work and someone pointed at something and told you to do it. So I've done all kinds. Um, I'll not preach any health and safety, but you know, like this the stuff that I did as the office junior, which you wouldn't be allowed to get someone to do now. Let's just put it that way. Um, things I had to collect from the shops for people in the firm that you wouldn't be allowed to send a 16-year-old to buy. But um, you know, it was just the sign of the times, and I and I kind of, you know, when I joined as well, I think the size of the team was about 25, maybe 30 people. Um, and it went from you know a single office firm doing no normal work, you know, normal general accountancy for for local businesses right the way through the you know, by the end, it was a hundred plus people across two offices, a third was just coming on board. Um, and you know, we we we were consulting on some of the the you know the biggest deals in the northeast, you know, and and and there's a little bit of everything in between, you know. But the bit that I always enjoyed was talking to the client. Yeah, the um it sounds silly, but doing the work never interested us. Talking to the client about the work was always the most important bit or the or the most fun bit, um, yeah, and especially speaking to prospects and team members, you know, trying to get the best out of a team, trying to get a prospect over the line, all always the always the most interesting part, really.

Doug Aitken 10:53

Yeah, yeah. Um in that journey, um Martin, what if if you were to pick out a highlight of what did you learn maybe about yourself during that time? Because you covered a lot of roles in in that time and saw a lot of growth in the firm. So, what did you learn about yourself?

Martin Wardle 12:09

I actually one of the most important things I learned was was was kind of right at the end, Doug, and we were doing a variation of like disc profiling or Briars, you know, Myers Briggs, sorry, or yeah, I can't remember the exact name of it now. I think I think it was a bespoke model that the the people were working with had, I can't remember the name. Um I think anyone's ever done any disc profiling. I if I get the wrong colours, I do apologize. People out there, HR people in accounting, I'm sorry. Um, but I think blue is like analytical, like and non-emotional. So uh we we we at Rob Soneda had a lot of what I would call blue blues. You know, you were like right in the top corner of the slow thinking, um, not impulsive slow thinking makes it sound like I like I don't mean challenged, I just mean we take their time and carefully consider things, yeah. Um and not emotional. Whereas on the opposite side of the square, you had kind of the not detail-oriented, the goal-oriented, emotional, say what you think, you know, that kind of and I I was always right over there. So for most of my work in career, I was surrounded by what I call blue blues. Um, and and and it was only right at the very end, I actually realized I was doing the like different version of whatever this disc profiling was. And I said, I can this doesn't make sense because what you what you're telling me I am feels right. You're telling me I'm someone who likes to work in a certain way. Why is it then I've spent 32 years looking at legislation and detail and all of like really just slow, hard thinking jobs, you know? And she said, Well, it's not like you can't make yourself do these things, it's just that it's not your natural state. So you've probably just always been exhausted and tired and like like worn out by it all. I was like, Yeah, I have, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I only kind of got that right at the end. I always knew that I wasn't the same as everybody else in there. Not not not better, not special, just just different. Um, but it was only right at the end that it actually clicked that. It doesn't mean you can't make yourself do these non-natural things, but but it's harder. It's a bit like the introvert can go to a room and host a room and do all kinds, but it'll drain them faster than it will an extrovert who actually charges off the energy, whereas an introvert it drains, and that's what I had, you know. And I remember going back to you know, when I was still living at home in the early days, I would go home and I would say to my dad, who did a hard physical job, you know, you would dig holes for like eight hours some days, and I would go in and say, 'I'm exhausted.' You go, How can you be exhausted? You've like you've sat down in a warm room drinking tea all day. I was like, I don't know what to say, Dad, but I'm I'm I'm exhausted, you know. And I think that was one of the biggest things I learned, really. I learned I learned that um what I don't know what I would do with that now, but I suppose if I could do it again, I would at least appreciate that's what was happening. Whereas I always just thought I was tired all day and exhausted and didn't appreciate it was because I was pushing against the tide, you know.

Doug Aitken 15:21

Yeah, it's it's really interesting. It's funny, I had a very similar experience at RBS where I discovered I was trying to climb the greasy corporate ladder and eventually qualify to be a regional manager, so it was a decent position. Um but I kind of sat myself down and had a chat with myself and realised I was doing it for all the wrong reasons, and part of the reason it had been such a struggle was because it wasn't naturally me. And I found a role in RBS almost by accident, and I was like a pig in the proverbial muck. You know, I just loved that role, and it felt, you know, I can really relate to the energy. I used to feed off it, I used to charge about the country busy as, but I was in my elements, so it didn't feel like work. And it it was the one thing that eventually persuaded me to leave the bank because I realized that any subsequent job was unlikely to be as fulfilling, and I also wouldn't be as good at it, and so I left to do my own thing in a very similar um vein to the job that I'd been doing at RBS. But so it was interesting. I was going to ask you what did you do with that knowledge, but it sounds like it almost came too late for you in a way.

Martin Wardle 16:40

Um well so so there's a cut there was a couple of events actually, Doug. Now I I also fell quite seriously ill in 2019. I I had basically about nine months, um, where the only time I got off the sofa was to go and lie in a hospital bed for a couple of weeks at a time, you know. Um so I'd already had that kind of revelation, the the awakening or whatever at that point that I didn't want to keep doing the same thing forever. So I was I was always very fortunate at Robson Ladler, mind you. And one thing Robson Ladler was always great at, um, and we're all still pals, they're just based around the corner, you know, I still speak to people from the firm. Um is is when I I was I was I was seriously, and I just said, look, I don't want to just come back and do the same thing. It like I've realized that this is taking its toll and it's it's it's slowly not killing us, but it's it's slowly chipping away, you know. So I was very fortunate that I came back and I did less tax and I I got into more things like coaching and just working with clients and running teams and marketing business development, those types of things, which was great. So that gave me a whole new I probably was only there till 2025 because in 2020 when I went back after illness, I managed to kind of reframe the role anyway. Um but yeah, I mean, did it come too late? I I don't know because I did actually still enjoy the work. I found it physically draining, but I still I did enjoy it. I think um you know, and I can't imagine a non-accountancy person's ever going to listen to this podcast, Doug. But if if you speak to people who aren't in the game, they they do just think our jobs are so tediously dull and boring, they can't imagine there's anything worth ever thinking about or talking about or to get excited about. That's not the case. When when you're helping a business go from idea to, you know, we had a couple of businesses at RL during my time, went from literally two guys in a shed to you know, eight-figure sale. You're like, that's amazing, that's that's a fantastic thing to be a part of, even if you're just a small part of it along the journey. Um so you there's loads of things, loads of great things to be grateful for. Um, and I would probably still do them again, even if it even if it was against the grain, because they were fantastic things to be involved with.

Client impact stories and testimonials

Doug Aitken 19:01

Yeah, I was actually going to ask you for a couple of stories, um Martin. So I don't know if one particular is coming to mind, but just to give people a sense of um uh input that you had, uh, because often we hear accountants the reason I'm saying this is often we hear accountants, tax advisers, people almost de demeaning the work that they do, or or um you know, just but you know, if you heard the client talk about it, the client would probably say, Well, Martin changed my life. He changed my life because he did blah blah blah blah blah. Whereas Martin or Martin, other people like Martin might say, I just I just did the counts and just did projections and just did the tax computation.

Why many firms are just adding up the numbers

Martin Wardle 19:46

Does that make sense? Well it does, yeah. What just I you know, this is this isn't me being egotistical because you've asked for this talk, but I am pretty cool, I'm pretty amazing, and uh me clients, my clients do love us. Um jobing aside, what what one thing we got really good at at Robson Edler, or or certainly I tried to get people to be really good at is asking for testimonials and reviews. Um and I and I still do that to this day, it which links to the human eyes, by the way, because we can say what we want about ourselves. The best advocate for your business is is a third party. Yeah, and so one little tip is every job you do, ask someone for a review, just have it have it ready to send out. Just say, Oh, by the way, I've popped it in the chat. Do you mind? People are happy to do it. Um, two two reviews stick out. Um, one was a guy I met, so he was uh he still is, I suppose his trade is still Plostra. And there was him and two lads in a van, and he'd been in business for I want to say 10 years. He'd been going away. He was still a relatively young lad because he liked me, he started when he was like 16. Um, but he was in his mid-20s, he'd been going a long time, and I met him through a networking group that I go to. Um we had a chat, and we realized quite quickly, or I realized quite quickly, that he had his pricing wrong, he was charging half what he should be. Um he was booked out for months in advance, so he was clearly too cheap, and all those other things, and it's the things that we take for granted in the game. Um, anyway, I remember he gave us a testimonial, and I I always remember him as the business baby because what he said was I didn't realise how little I knew until I got proper advice. I was a business baby, and that's almost a direct quote. I've still got it somewhere. That was a lad called Neil, and that that meant a lot to us actually. That we took someone who you know, if you if if you were in and around Newcastle now, his vans are everywhere now, and it wasn't me, it was him. But I'd like to think that part of the thing that triggered it was there is a different way to run business, by the way, Neil. Why don't you crack on and do things? And the last time, last conversation I had with him, I said, Oh, how many vans you got on the road now? And he said, I don't know. You know, he's like he doesn't know if it's 13, 15, 17, he's pretty, you know, he's got a fantastic business now. So that's that's that's one story, and I only knew that because I asked the client, which like why would you not want feedback like that from a client? It's that was that was really good. And then I suppose there's another one which um again you you just get these by asking. I asked um it's a pair of brothers who who I deal with. Um I do a lot of property related people, to be fair. So most of my most of my work focuses on property, property investment, uh property taxes, etc. These lads um met them through the same networking group, actually became clients, and they said, Oh, we're thinking about doing this, and they were off to pay quite a lot of money for a weekend if. Property education. And I remember not being totally dismissive, but you know, saying you've got to be careful, you spend a lot of money here and you know think about it. And we've always had a fairly open relationship. Still to this day, he's cut he's coming in to see me soon. Um and and and and when I started up on my own, I said, Oh, do you mind giving us a good review just to you know just just to help us get us going again, you know, because it's quite scary starting from scratch. And he said, Um, and his reviews on there, it's a lad called Anthony Hunter. Um, and he in the review is something like, Where do I begin? You know, basically I wouldn't do anything without running it past Marty, you know. And again, it's it's nice to hear that you can't let it fill you up with too much, you don't, you know, you can't go straight to your head, but it's nice to know that the things you're doing are making a difference, and they're fairly minor things. They're they're they're not big grand, you know, people selling things for millions of pounds that you've helped them do, but they're life-changing stories, which yeah, just that little bit of basic getting to know people, spending a little bit more time understanding what makes them tick. That that's that's what can come from putting the humanity into the numbers, you know. Because if all we did is added their stuff up, none of that would have happened.

Doug Aitken 24:08

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I you're making me think of the profession as a whole now, Martin, and you know, you and I won't solve issues in the profession overnight at all. But I just wonder, in your view, you know, how many firms are out there that are just doing what you said, just adding up the numbers, are not passing on the advice or the the the thoughts and the input that are needed.

Martin Wardle 24:36

I I I don't know about the numbers. It's it's quite it's quite a hard thing. Anecdotally, I think even really good firms are still not doing this, ironically. I used to think we were pretty good at this at Robson Adler. I think I'm pretty good at it in there with TH Ward. Um and it's easy to be complacent and think that you are doing this all the time, but then every now and again you get a little reality shock where you know I I know another firm really well. Um obviously, most people know people in the game, and someone came in to see me and I didn't I didn't appreciate they were a client of another firm that I know. And they came in and said, Oh, we need to have a talk about a couple of things. This isn't working right, that's not really. And I said, Well, you know, these are all fairly basic things that you know, I'm always very careful not to just diss another accountant. I said, but these are fairly normal things. I'm sure if you ask them, they can do all of these things, you know. Who are you with? And they said who they were with, and it was someone that I know. So I said, Well, look, I know them, I know they can do these things. I honestly think your best option is just to have another chat with them and just say, you know, can we just have a little refresh on the relationship, you know? And I think what happens often, Doug, is is clients don't like to pay fees. Not everyone, but clients don't like to pay fees, and they know if they interact with an accountant or a professional, they get a bill. It's not always a direct correlation, but the more time you spend, the dearer the service. So, what you find is that the clients kind of withdraw into this thing where they just want to, and I I mean, I I say to people like, I don't want clients who just drive past the office once a year and throw a carrier bag over the wall. That that's not what I'm after, and also those clients aren't getting good service because they should really bring the stuff in, sit down, have a proper chat and tell those stories, like I said. Um, and I and I I think somehow accountants assume that clients don't want help, but clients are assuming that their accountant is giving them all the help they're capable of, and both both are wrong, yeah, and I and I don't know how you fix it. Um, go on. Sorry, carry on. I was just saying I'm rereading a book that I read years ago called The Checklist Manifesto by Atoll, someone I can't remember the surname, and it talks about how even basic things that you all know, basic services can all be improved by just having a checklist. It sounds dull. Um, but it starts off with a really powerful story about when you put a um a line into somebody's arm in the ICU, and how if you don't do something like a six or seven or eight-step process, it gets infected. So this guy said, you know, we should really have a checklist to make sure these $200,000 a year surgeons, which is what they were talking about in some, you know, hospital in Oregon or whatever it was, you know, like that that people are getting infections. We know you know how to do this. Do you mind if we have a checklist to remind you how to do the most simplest thing you ever do? And they were like, we don't need this. But anyway, the FORT got the checklist in, and all of a sudden, infections plummeted. So you can have a scenario where you have all the knowledge, you know what you're meant to do, but still don't do it. And the weird thing is, I think you can automate the nudge to make you then do the personal touch, which sounds weird. You can automate using technology the nudge to do the personal touch, and I think people need to get better at that.

Checklists and tech nudges that automate the personal touch

Doug Aitken 28:21

Yeah, I like that.

Martin Wardle 28:22

So, so my my on-boarding thing at the moment, which um which is kind of like fantasy at the moment because it's it's all hands on deck at the moment, but yeah, I've got I've got a check like a stage in my on-board and checklist to have all of the get clearance, make sure they've signed AML, all of those things, and then six weeks later, ring the client and ask them if everything's going okay. Yeah, such a simple thing, so easy, automated, I can't miss it, but it looks like to the client, and I've just rang on the button and thought, I just wanted to check in. Now, obviously, I don't ring them and say, I'm ringing because I've got an automated six-week reminder. You don't do it robotically, but you can use the you can use the robot to nudge you to then give that personal touch.

Doug Aitken 29:11

Please forgive this interruption to the podcast. You've heard Martin Wardle of TH Ward talking about the use of checklists and how the use of checklists, even in a profession like accountancy and tax, is so crucial to building a brilliant client experience. You'll find a link in the show notes to a business breakthrough that will tell you more about that very subject. Let's get back to the podcast. Yeah, absolutely. Um yeah, there's a lot there's a lot in what you said there. The first thing it made me think of was um clients and accountants don't know what they don't know, if that makes sense. So quite often a client will not take that service because they they don't understand how it could help them. And I've often wrestled with, you know, almost like you touched on earlier, how do we make clients more aware of what an accountant can do? And I guess part of the answer is in what you've said already write testimonials, write stories, create the stories, so that it's actually clients telling the story of the impact that you've had. And and I also think because we face this to an extent in our work with accountants, Martin, where sometimes accountants and clients only think in PL mode, whereas if they thought in capital value mode, would I pay £5,000 to add £150,000 to my capital value? And when you coucha in those terms, of course you would every day of the week. But would you spend £5,000 looking at it from a PL perspective to gain uncertain benefits? We're not exactly sure what yet. I don't know if that's the right equation or argument, but you can see how people follow that thought process.

Martin Wardle 31:05

There was there was there was a great um when I was doing coaching, could because tax advice and accountancy is all coaching in a way. Um, but as I started to do more formal coaching, you know, you'd sit and you do mind maps with people and you'd you know do all kinds of stuff, and it was great, and I and I really enjoyed that as well, mainly because you're sitting talking to a client for half a day uninterrupted, just hearing everything. It was brilliant. Um, but but one of the one of the things, just on your on your point there about would you invest five grand for, you kind of you know it's sometimes just about reframing the conversation. Um, I don't know if this is relevant to what you are getting at there or not, Doug. Sorry, but you quite often say to someone, well, you know, coaching seems expensive, but if this all works, this is what's going to happen to your business. Your turnover's gonna go up 50%, you're gonna improve your profitability by 50%, you're gonna be able to work half as much and make the same money whilst getting your four-week fishing holiday and you know, and Yellowstone that you're after. Um, that's worth five grand, isn't it? And they can't say no to that. Yeah, they can't say, we have yeah, I want all of that, but it's not worth five grand all of a sudden. Um, so so so so again, I think sometimes just just trying to pull this back to humanity in numbers, that that's not that's not like a slick sales technique or method to try and hoodwink the client, it's helping the client to understand what the benefit of the service is, yeah.

Doug Aitken 32:39

And and also perhaps at a fundamental level, understanding what they want from life from the business.

Martin Wardle 32:47

Well, in that story, I couldn't have said go fishing in Yellowstone if I didn't know they wanted to go fishing in Yellowstone. Yeah, you can't, you just can't do it. Um, yeah, and and and and and and again, I think it's just I could probably talk for weeks on this dog, so I'm sorry, but I I think the biggest problem people have is they don't charge enough.

Speaker 4 33:07

Yeah.

Being the Marks and Spencers Tax Advisor

Martin Wardle 33:10

I I get people who reach out to me and they say, Can you give me a price for X? And I'll sit in my prices on my website, I'm fairly open. Tax return 420 plus VA. Oh, I've only got one property, great, it's 420 plus fat. Oh, you're not doing it cheaper? No, because the return is only part of the journey. I I I I need to get I want to know a bit about you. You might that might sound crazy on a tax return. There's not loads to get into, but if I was charging 150 quid for that, I would have to do two and a half, three, let's just say 200 for easier maths. I'd have to do twice as much work to make the same money, which means I can only spend half as much time on every client. Yeah, and and and again, you speak to accountants, and I I've got a little group called the Indies Group, a little WhatsApp group where a bunch of us little independents. I say, What are you charging for this and that? But I'm sometimes blown away at how little they're charging. And I'm thinking, but you you can't possibly be spending much time on that job for that price. Or if you are, you're not making any money, which defeats the purpose of being in business. Um, and and again, you know, it's one of the classic things is haven't got time to sit and have a chat with someone about fishing in Yellowstone. Why not? Why have you not got the time for that? Yeah, you should have you should have the time for that. And if you haven't, sounds silly, but charge people a little bit more.

Doug Aitken 34:35

Yeah. What have you learned about client selection over your time working, either in Robson Laidler or or more laterally in TH Ward, Martin? I'm just keen to understand. You know, how do you turn away those cheaper tax return clients, for example?

Martin Wardle 34:53

So I think this is probably more of a marketing and a business development question. I I don't position myself in a way where the people who reach out to me are expecting to pay less. What do I mean by that? I suppose if I sent you off into in into the high street, Doug, and I said, I want you to nip in and get me some cheap crackers for Christmas, you wouldn't go to waitros or marksys, would you?

Speaker 4 35:24

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 35:25

Because there's a clue there. You know, it's it's almost like the stellar auto's stellar or I don't know, yeah. Reassuringly expensive. It's reassuringly expensive. Marxies and waitros put that image out, don't they? They they let you know this isn't just these aren't just crackers, these are Marxies crackers.

Speaker 4 35:42

Yeah, yeah.

Martin Wardle 35:43

So if I said I wanted an Indi pound, get me some cheap crackers, you would go to the pound stretcher or you'd go to one of these pop-up Christmas shops, wouldn't you? Um, what's that got to do with accountancy? Well, my pricing is on my website. I I let people know before they hit contact me that a tax return is 420 plus that. If they're hoping to pay 100 or 200, they just simply they're not reaching out to me.

Doug Aitken 36:06

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 36:07

So I'm not having to tell them.

Speaker 4 36:09

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 36:10

Does that make sense? You kind of you you you attract the thing that you that you attract. You you the message you put out there is responded to.

Doug Aitken 36:19

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 36:19

I sounded like a right hippie talk. I do apologize. I don't know what's must be my 2026, you know, start of start of the year kind of optimism. But yeah, you you you do attract the thing that you ask for. It's it's it's just that simple. So if you want to do cheap tax returns, yeah, do all your advertising on Facebook groups and you'll get cheap tax returns. If you don't want to do them, find other ways to get work, you know. I'm also unapologetic as well. Um, it's really hard. I know someone who's just started up in business, and I said the best thing I can I can share with you as an accountant is it's better to have a little bit less work, but the work you get is good value.

Doug Aitken 37:03

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 37:04

Because I think a lot of new businesses almost break their pricing model in those early days when they're desperate for work.

Know your value

Speaker 4 37:12

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 37:13

You know, when someone says, Well, well, you've got nothing else to do because you just started, surely you can do all of this work for a couple of hundred quid, and you kind of go, Well, I can, but the problem is they'll ask you to do it again the year after.

Speaker 4 37:26

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 37:26

So, you know, one of the biggest challenges is just is just knowing your value and just saying, Yeah, no, I can't do it for that. Sorry. I can I can recommend you someone if you want.

Doug Aitken 37:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Martin Wardle 37:38

I I I recommend other firms who are much cheaper than me.

Doug Aitken 37:41

Yeah, good. Yeah, then the know your value parts are a massive um uh lesson, definitely. And you know, we're often in discussions with accountants around pricing, and um it's just that ability to help them to let go of clients who they know deep down aren't right for them, but they just don't want to lose them.

Martin Wardle 38:03

You must see wildly differing prices, Doug. I I I know this. I I um Go proposal, the the the pricing software used to have a Facebook group that was really busy and it was really good because you could just do you could just like test the market. So I remember putting in there what must be three or four years ago now, how much is everyone charging for a simple tax return? What's your minimum fee for a single property tax return? Something like that. And there was people charging like 75 quid at a time where we were charging, I think it was 350 plus fat, something like that. And there was just it, and there was there was everything in between. And and I've I've started saying to people now, if you're paying 75 quid for a tax return, I think you're actually overpaying because they can't possibly be doing any work. You're you you're you're they're filling your form in, you may as well just fill your own form in and save 75 quid. You can't be getting any advice for 75 quid. Um, but yeah, those people are choosing to be in that market, and I don't know why. I don't know why.

Doug Aitken 39:12

So tell me about TH Ward and how did that come about, Martin?

Martin Wardle 39:18

Um well, I think so. After after 32 years in one place, you start to get a little bit itchy. Um and I'd I'd had this illness, I'd I'd been through this illness, you know, six years ago now. And I'd always said to the rest of the guys at Rob Sinilla, look, if I ever fall ill again, I don't expect you to carry us. Um they did the previous time, it was fantastic, no complaints. And I said, if I ever fall ill again, I don't think it's fair to let you carry me, you know. Um, so I'll I'll I'll I'll leave, I'll I'll do something else. Um, and I had a bit of a health scare last year, actually. So, you know, classic man my age goes to the doctors, get your PSA done for your prostate, and you're like, Oh, that's high. What's it meant to be? All right, right, that's really high. So a bit of a panic, go and get all the tests done and everything. And whilst I'm going through this, I'm I'm um my internal monologue is kind of saying, Right, well, if if I have got prostate cancer, I know my chances are pretty good, and I know the success rates and all of those things, but it's not fair to put the firm through that again. So I'll leave, I'll fight it on my own time and I'll come back and do something else. Um and the unexpected happened. They they the doctors kind of went, Yeah, you're okay. We think it was a false alarm, you're absolutely fine. And I should have obviously been over the moon, but for some reason I wasn't, and I was like, Oh, what's going on here? So a little bit more of a soul searching again with the hippie theme, sorry. Um, you know, thinking about it again. And I'd realised that the thing that I dreamt about doing post-recovery was actually more exciting to me than staying in the role at Robson Laidler, which is so weird because I wasn't unhappy at Robson Laidler. Um, I've done some fantastic things, had some fantastic experiences. Um, and by any measure, it was working. We we were we were doing big things, like I say, there was a purchase we were in the middle of, it's done now, so I can talk about it. Um, but we've been working on that for a while, and it was it was loads of really good things, and actually, just having this tax return shop, that's that's what I do. I do tax returns for landlords, that's my primary thing, not my only thing, but primary thing. And I I think I just talked myself into it to the point where I couldn't ignore it anymore, and it became one of those really corny things of I would regret not doing this, so I better just do it. And that was it. It was completely up to us.

Doug Aitken 41:44

I do get that actually. I used to think about that too when um if I was thinking about a change, I would just let it rest for a few days, and if I was really excited about it, my brain would agitate and I'm gonna do this, I need to do that, I would tackle this, I would speak to so and so, and I had it all mapped out in my head. And equally, if that didn't happen, I it would tell me it's not right, so I'm not gonna do it. It's almost your gut feel playing out, if that makes sense.

Martin Wardle 42:15

Yeah, yeah. So I I I thought about this on and off for months. Um probably only months, not not, you know. I I I think I got my first blood testing, probably something like the April and by September on hand of me noticing. Um and it was really, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's still I still I didn't sleep last night because I'm thinking, how many tax returns am I gonna do by the end of January? Having not done a tax return for years, by the way, dog. Because obviously, I you know we had teams of people who did all of these things, yeah. Um, you know, I've probably done thou literally thousands in me in my career, and then now I've got like what what box on a return does that go in again? So it's it's it's it's it's it's crazy, but it's been good, it's it's it's good, I'm loving it, it's much more exciting. Um I suppose you know we'll time will tell whether it works out.

Doug Aitken 43:09

Yeah, yeah.

Martin Wardle 43:10

Hopefully it will, but uh yeah, loving it so far.

Doug Aitken 43:13

Good, good, and I'm glad the prostate story finished well. I I had a similar brush about 15 months ago, um but got the diagnosis and got it got surgery. So mine was dealt with pretty quickly and and very fortunately.

Martin Wardle 43:28

Probably in a similar time scale then than Doug's. That that's that's that's when I was uh yeah, so but I'm glad that went okay, man. And and that's the weird thing. I know the recoveries on early prostate, I I I know they're good. Yeah, so it's it it this isn't this wasn't some kind of like doom loop where I thought I was gonna die or something. I I I knew either way I would be alright, so I I that's why I put so much time into planning what I would do post recovery. It was it and somehow that became more appealing. It was yeah, yeah, done.

Doug Aitken 44:00

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, so how is it now running your own ship and making all the decisions?

Building A Lean Firm With Smart Systems

Martin Wardle 44:07

Yeah, well, well, well, the good thing is I can do whatever I want. The bad thing is I've got to do everything. Yeah, so every silver lining belongs to a cloud, I suppose, doesn't it? If you think of it like that, but yeah, I love it. Um my son works for me now, so I've got I've got help. Um he does he doesn't he he's still very fresh, he doesn't know anything, but just having that little bit of something else is is is nice, even if he's just doing basic input of of data and stuff like that, you know. Um but yeah, I it it's quite good as well, because one thing that he one thing my son brings to me is a brutal honesty if you think some um just I suppose missing something or just being stupid, he can say. As my son, in a way that a team member wouldn't have done. So that's good. I've got, if anything, a bit more honesty in the team. But also, because he's a 16-year-old lad who loves programming and IT, he's just everything I do, he looks at and goes, Why are you doing that like that? There must be a better way, Dad. Can I come up with a better way for you? So it's great. He's already helping me uh come up with new systems and new interactions between bits of software and everything, which which is fantastic.

Speaker 4 45:22

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 45:22

Because I've I've always felt like the software in accountancy is terrible, it's awful. I and I can't understand why nobody's nailed it. Um, but it's quite good to have some ideas from in the building, but actually have the ability you can then just go, yeah, I'll look at those things for you. So it's great, loving it.

Doug Aitken 45:41

Ah, brilliant. So, what does the future hold? What do you what are your ambitions for TH Ward?

Martin Wardle 45:46

Um, so I'm I'm 49. Well, I'd always imagined I would be retired by 50. Um, and I and I and I think we would have been had we not moved house twice and doubled the mortgage both times. Classic. Um so yeah, um what do I think? Well, I think in April I'll probably be putting a proper recruitment out there, trying to get someone else on the team. I don't mind doing the work, but I'd rather I'd rather be building the work rather than doing all the work. And I and I realise that it's the wrong way around. Most people try to get enough work for two people before they get their second person. I want to do it the other way around. I'm getting towards not capacity, but I'm getting busy. So if I can get someone else to do all of that, I can then fill me up again. So I'm gonna go the reverse way, which um I realise that's a privilege and I'm and I'm happy to be able to do it. So I'll probably get a team member in next next year, probably take on a few more service lines because I'm very selective on what I do at the moment. I I don't want to do really obscure, hard things. I probably never will. Um but I think we're in a position, Doug, where it's weird because if you if you if you asked people you know in a poll at account X or ZeroCon or something like that, and you said do you think it's a good idea to set up a tax return only practice now? I think most people would say I'm pretty stupid on that when you've got the advance of AI, MTD, people are gonna realise they don't need to do any of those things. And and I still think there's plenty of scope for good ad good admin, good compliance tasks done well. Um so I you know I'm actually quite optimistic of the future. I think MTD is gonna give an opportunity to get even closer to people than you've ever had to be, four touch points instead of one for a tax return. Why would you not want that in a human business? Um and yeah, I mean, some some new landlords might just go straight to report on their own. That's fine. There's enough. I mean, I joke, I joke that my target audience is the boomer landlord who they know Chat GPT exists, but they don't use it, they're not bothered. They're happy, they've they've got the money, they're boomers, so they've got time and money and probably a high-paid job and a non-working spouse, probably, and they don't mind. They're happy just to pay me, you know, grand a year for two tax returns and not have to think about it. And I think there's a lot of people like that. So I'm happy for people to chase all of these dreams and do all of the other things. I'll I'll stick here with the boomers and uh and just just look after the boomers because someone still needs to do that, you know.

AI, tech and the human element

Doug Aitken 48:39

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, I was going to ask you in closing about the future, um, given all the advances in technology and whatnot, but you've answered it beautifully. And and I agree with you as well. I you know, the human element to what we do isn't going to disappear quickly. In actual fact, I think it's going to come into even more focus. Those we can provide us.

Martin Wardle 49:01

What's really strange, Doug, is I I still get loads of texts, WhatsApps, emails from clients who ask me questions they absolutely could have asked ChatGPT to answer.

Doug Aitken 49:15

Yeah.

Martin Wardle 49:15

Now, on any given day, I'll get asked about some really obscure things and some everyday normal things. And it might be, you know, a tenant has broken a window, I've repaired it. Is that an allowable repair? Probably not, but you like that kind of low level, which is very easy to answer. Google already would have answered that, but ChatGPT definitely would have got that right. Um, and yet they don't. They message me, they ask me. Um, yeah, and I so so you know, I don't know what the factory owners and the the the factory workers felt like when looms came into existence, but they probably all thought, well, we're all gonna be out of a job doing nothing. There were still people running factories, making clothes and rugs and all those other things, they just did it in a different way, you know. Um and and and and there were still there's there's still people who want a handmade rug. And I I can be the one who, you know, I don't know that that that that analogy probably didn't land. We used to make shoes back in the day, the old yeah, Chinese factories make all the shoes now, but there's still the odd couple of people who make handmade shoes, and there's still a little audience that still wants those handmade shoes, if that makes any sense at all. Um, absolutely.

Doug Aitken 50:35

I I think as well, the the bigger analogy made me think of as um you know, when people say the the profession is going to change out of all recognition, um, you know, if the early 1900s, when cars came along, suddenly the market for blacksmiths plummeted because we didn't have horses anymore, we didn't need horses. But yeah, were they all these blacksmiths unemployed?

Martin Wardle 51:01

No, they they went to a different trade or profession or they used similar to tires on cars instead of instead of horseshoes on horses to put tires on cars instead. So I don't know where all the accounts will go. Um but they'll be fine. They'll be fine. Yeah.

Doug Aitken 51:20

I think you're right. I mean, I I mean you you said about Google and Chat GPT, and people will look, but they'll still phone you and say, Martin, could you just check this? Check this right.

Martin Wardle 51:32

What's what's really interesting as well, Doug, is even though Chat GPT is getting exceptionally good at a lot of things, a good a really good competent advisor hasn't really got anything to worry about with it. Um the 150 quid for a year-end set of company accounts advisor, they they're the ones that need to worry because they already didn't know what they were doing anyway. Yeah, they were already winging it. Do you know what I mean? And you might think nobody does account for 150 quid. They do, it's insane. Um they're the ones that will fall out because the people buying their service are already tight, they will find a cheaper way again if possible. Whereas, you know, the person who's who's happy to pay 420 quid plus that for a tax return, well, they probably already weren't trying to do it themselves, yeah, and probably still won't for a while yet, you know. Um so yeah, I th I think there'll be a whole part of the market that'll disappear, but it'll be the part that is undercharged and so has no relationship. When you have no relationship, you may as well not have a relationship as a buyer, you may as well have no relationship with Chat GPT than with an accountant who's already robotic and only procedural. Yeah, there's no difference between those two services. So if you can be a different service already, you'll be fine. I've got no doubt at all, you'll be fine.

Doug Aitken 53:06

Yeah, fabulous. Um, plenty opportunity for all of us, Martin. Our time's come to an end. I'm afraid I could have gone on for ages. It was a really quick um time passing there. Thanks so much for all your input and um conversation today, Martin. Really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely fine, no problem at all. Great stuff, thank you, and wish you all the success with TH Ward as well. Thank you very much, then. You've just heard Martin Wardle of TH Ward talk about the importance of client selection. These are subjects taught in the Accountants Growth Academy. To find out more, go to remarkablepractice.com or follow the link in the show notes.

Paul Shrimpling 53:50

You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanize the numbers.online. You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available.

Doug Aitken 54:08

This is a short snippet from a podcast with Derek Granger of RS Growth, in which he talks about the importance of business development and selling in accountancy. If you'd like to hear more, go to your usual podcast platform or listen to it on humanize the numbers.online.

Derek Granger 54:27

I am one of the people who think it's thinks it's going to change it like massively. Um and I say that with a little bit of inside knowledge. Uh so one of the companies that I work with is a company called Claimer, um, who are the UK's leading technology partner to RD advisory firms and uh accountants who do RD patch work. Um and we've made some some great inroads uh in terms of utilising AI um to reduce errors, to improve efficiencies, uh, to make claims more defensible. But um but those guys are working on something very exciting. Uh we we demoed uh to our first potential clients last week when I was in London. Uh we've got 10 design partners working on that, which include some big top 10 uh firms um and top 20 firms, um, but that's got wider reaching application right across tax.