Humanise The Numbers - for ambitious accountants in practice

Alan Farrelly, Managing Director at UHY Farrelly Dawe White Limited

• Alan Farrelly and Doug Aitken

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How must it feel to found and to grow, over a period of almost 40 years, a busy, vibrant firm, from humble beginnings to over a hundred people?

In this podcast with Alan Farrelly of UHY Farrelly Dawe White, based in Ireland, you'll find out how it felt to contend with all of the advances in technology and the other changes that we've seen over the generations, to the point where Alan is thinking of planning for exit.  How does that all feel, that journey? 

You'll find the answers to these questions and more in this podcast, where Alan talks about what it's like to be a people-led firm. He shares what it's like to trust people and get out of their way to allow them to do their jobs properly. 

Go to humanisethenumbers.online or wherever you get your podcasts from to have a listen to this very absorbing podcast with Alan.

Please scroll down the podcast’s episode page for the contact information for Alan and for the additional, downloadable resources mentioned in the podcast.

Paul Shrimpling:

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Alan Farrelly:

What we did was we got a sports coach in to spend a wee bit of time with them and show them what winning looks like and what winning feels like and sort of building up the confidence a little bit, you know, and that has been great and the staff really appreciate you going that little extra mile, you know, and some of the other staff. We got them a little bit of one-to-one coaching and which helped them build their confidence as well. And when you do that, doug, you get it back tenfold, like the staff when they just come out the other side of that dark period and you know that they just feel you were there for them when they needed. And and then we have an online facility as well, doug, for the staff. So when they are down or they hit a traumatic period or event that they can actually ring up the helpline, get a little bit of help and we don't know anything about it.

Doug Aitken:

How does it feel to grow an accounting firm from scratch to one where there's over 100 people employed in it? In this podcast with Alan Farley of Farley Doll White chartered accountants in Ireland, alan talks about what it's like to grow a firm and also what it's like to let go and trust your team and get out their way and allow the team to do their jobs properly and all the time being the figurehead and allowing people to flourish under your charge. Let's go to that podcast now.

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, so my name is Alan Farrelly, I'm the managing director of UHY Farrelly, dull White, and we're based in Ireland, doug, and two offices in Dundalk, which is our head office, and in Balbriggan, so we have about 85 people. So 60 people in Dundalk and, day to day, 25 people in Balbriggan day to day, and off that, doug. We then have a personal insolvency practice, which has another 10 people, and we've financial services company that has another six people, and we have a co-set company then after that, which is another six people, so all told, just over 100 people. And and we are the uhy representatives in Ireland, so that gives us coverage of Ireland is 32 counties, so that gives us the coverage for 26 in ROI. And we have another firm in Belfast that we work very closely with that covers the six counties in Northern Ireland. So set up the firm back in 1989.

Alan Farrelly:

When you say that, doug, when you realize that you have to go back into the last century, it seems like an awful long time. They were talking about Cristiano Ronaldo last night playing his first match for Portugal in 2003. And I'm saying I wish I was back in 2003 and not 1989. So it goes back a long time. But yeah, no, it's been a hugely enjoyable journey and very interesting just to see how the whole process of auditing, accounting and tax has all changed so much in that 35, 36 years. It's just been incredible, like when you think back in 1989, no internet really at that stage and computers were just coming in. Believe it or not, we were probably the first accounting firm in Dundalk with laptops. Mobile phones were just coming in at the same time. So the two boys, myself and Kevin Dahl, two laptops, two phones, and we just thought, oh God, we're devised you know, but it's changed a lot since that time.

Doug Aitken:

Absolutely Well. Welcome to the podcast, alan. Thanks so much for giving up your time, and we may well delve into the early years in our conversation today. Having said that, I started work in 1983, so I'm clearly of a similar vintage to you, if not further down the track. But yeah, we'll delve into this old reminisce thing pretty soon, alan. Our podcast is called the Humanise the Numbers podcast, so we always ask our guests the question first what does that term mean to you? Humanize the numbers?

Alan Farrelly:

We always say, doug, that we have to appreciate that not all our clients are numerous. So what we try to do is display our numbers, the data that we generate, the information that we pull into a format that is easily deciphered by the client in their language and that changes from client to client, because you find that you have some finance directors who are hugely numerous, and then we have maybe some directors who are hugely numerous, and then we have maybe some directors who are not numerous.

Doug Aitken:

so it's trying to strike the balance and making sure that everybody understands what the numbers are about yeah, it's a really good point actually, and I remember reading something about richard branson and he had it, may be in a LinkedIn and I'm sure he admitted relatively recently they didn't understand net profit and he's his FD, had taken him to the side and actually talked him through it and challenged him on it and and said, look, I'll deal with these questions in future. But I see that a lot in firms as well, that they don't understand how innumerate lots of clients actually are.

Alan Farrelly:

Some are actually put off and petrified by figures, um, which seems daft to us, but when you put yourself in the client's shoes, suddenly it makes sense yeah, and I suppose, doug, it's very easy for us all to sit back and talk about ebitda and margin and markup and just take it that everybody in the room knows exactly where you are. And then when you look at it and you analyze it with the client to go through it, you find in an awful lot of cases that markup and margin simple things that we all take for granted is really challenging for the client. And just to go through that process and then you talk about EBITDA and net profit and again always a challenge for clients and you know it really is good to you, know to sit down, understand your client, understand what knowledge they have around the numbers and then try and get to their level so you're actually adding real value to them yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Doug Aitken:

Um so started in 1989 um two laptops, two fledgling mobile phones must have been the size of bricks and those days, alan, barely portable, weren't they? Um in all, your Alan. What are you most proud of about Farley, dore White and the journey that you've had over the years?

Alan Farrelly:

I think it really, at the end of the day, when you take that Doug, you look at, you know what you have achieved and having over 100 people working together every day and I think is something to be super proud of. And you know we would be a top 20 firm in Ireland, so I think that's a great achievement to start from zero and be able to grow into a top 20 firm. And I think the other things that are really important to us is, you know, being part of an international network and and welcome being able to help our clients internationalize and be able to spread their wings, and I think that is hugely important and and I think it sets us apart as something that we should be very proud of uh, to be part of uhy and you know there are only probably 25 networks in the world, doug, and to be part of one of them I think is a real honour.

Doug Aitken:

What attracted you to UHY in the first place, Alan?

Alan Farrelly:

A very interesting story, doug. In 2008, the member firm for UHY in Ireland decided that they were leaving for another network and we had been on the lookout. We had been talking to a couple of networks probably for one or two years before that and really we just didn't get a match. We didn't feel we had a good connection with those other networks and, being a regional practice, so not being in Dublin city centre made it a little bit difficult too, because it just kept us away from some of the bigger networks. Because they wanted us to have a presence in Dublin and albeit we had a small presence in Dublin at that stage, it wasn't our head office and they wanted to see us in there with head office.

Alan Farrelly:

So when the UHY network spacing came up, we contacted UHY in London and the chairman, ladislav Hornin at the time, came across, visited us and did an interview process with us. He also visited two other firms on the same visit with us. He also visited two other firms on the same visit and, lucky enough, our application was successful. I headed the other two firms that applied and that let us get in probably about June time 2008. And the European meeting was coming up a week or two later in Madrid. We were able to attend that and get in straight away and it was great to get in and meet people immediately and you just felt a part of the uhy family almost immediately thereafter, dog you know yeah, good, good.

Doug Aitken:

And how has it changed what you offer to clients being part of uhy?

Alan Farrelly:

yeah, I, I think it's. It's that point I made to you earlier on. If a client is looking to move into a different jurisdiction, it just means the likelihood is that we know the person in our office in that country and we can make that introduction and we just know that the client is going to get that same level of care as they would get from us, going to get that same level of care as they would get from us. So, like last week, and we had our Spanish office in contact with me to say one of the one of our clients that we were referred to them in Spain had just completed a big acquisition and they were just saying you know, thanks, adam, for putting us in contact. And the client came back to me that evening just to say listen, that was a great connection, but we want to expand into Sweden and could you make a connection there. So out of that, we thank you out of Spain and we had an introduction straight into Sweden in the same day. So, look, the client just needs. Once we could get back to the client and say, yeah, here you need to go and speak to Bernard in Spain or Ragnar in Sweden and we could give them first name terms. It just it's. It's a sweet spot for the client as well. So I I think that's a good one.

Alan Farrelly:

I think from our own point of view on the selfish side of it, doug. And obviously ireland is a very low tax in terms of corporation tax and so we've a 12.5% corporation tax rate here which we've had. Some people think we've only had it recently, but it actually goes back to 1987. So having that low corporation tax rate has been very attractive to inward investment in Ireland. So again, any of our member firms in the States or the UK looking to get back into a way into Europe and in an English-speaking country with you know laws similar to what they have on both sides of the pond, for us it really gives us a huge advantage. So we get a lot of inward referrals from the likes of the US and the UK and that's a great opportunity as well. So I think it's a two-way street. Doug has been able to help our clients go international and at the same time being there for our member firms, clients looking to get a foothold in Ireland.

Doug Aitken:

It's probably fair to say there's a get a lot up. You know there's a number of members of the network, obviously, but you've also been a real supporter of the network, currently vice chairman, is that correct?

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, that's correct. So we, we have an international board and and there are 11 people on the board and two from our founder member firms, each from founder member firms, so two from the UK, two from the US, and then there's seven elected members three in Europe, doug, or in EMEA, should I say, two in Americas and two in Asia-Pac. So I've been lucky enough, pack. So I've been lucky enough to be elected, and in a mia region and and then, when my, my term of office was up, I got re-elected. So, and nice to be re-elected, and actually for a third time at this at this stage. So, and yeah, so, international board, it's very interesting because you can actually see what's happening, happening at all our firms around the globe, and we've 337 offices around the globe, doug, and we're in 99 countries, so over 10 and a half thousand staff.

Alan Farrelly:

So it really is interesting. So you're interacting with a lot of firms on a regular basis yeah, yeah.

Doug Aitken:

And what are the? What are the things that bind us, alan? I mean, a lot of people have travelled a lot. Some people haven't travelled at all, but inevitably when you go to other countries you meet different people. There's always things that you come away with thinking you know what they're, just like us. What's been your experience when you've been away? What binds us, do you think?

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, I think friendship and trust, doug, are the two big ones. I I think we always talk about uhy as being a family and I because you have that connection, you actually get to know the people and very, very well you get you know, you know their families, you know their friends, you know. So it's a great way of connecting with people. And then I think the the second one is we trust them because you know, I think if, if you don't trust, you're not going to be able to bond, you're not going to be able to grow and you're not going to be able to develop. So, being able to trust your colleagues around the globe that they will give you that same level of service as that you give your clients, so that that level of service is not going to drop, and I think it's very important.

Alan Farrelly:

And I think, for the client's point of view, I think price is very important. I think it's very important and I think, for the client's point of view, I think price is very important, doug. I think they always like to think that if they get a good service at a fair price, they're always happy. And we find that, even on international work, rarely will we ever hear a client come back and say do you know that firm that you referred to us in Germany or Italy or wherever? They rarely come back and say they had a problem on price Good. So I think that friendship, that connection, that trust that they will get that level of service and you know that you're risking your client when you're putting them out there, doug. Having that trust there and knowing that you know they are going to be treated fairly is very important.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, you've mentioned family a few times, alan. What's your own family circumstance? Talk about your family, yeah.

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, so married to Dorothy, got married in 1991. I don't know how she stuck with me, doug, but she's managed it fairly well together. And we have three boys Ronan, who's our office manager here, and Ronan's 30 years of age, and he's threatening to make me a granddad in a month or two, doug, which is that's the first time, so, yeah, so a little bit of a change. So my second lad is Peter, and he's not involved in the practice. He's no interest in even helping me, but he's in digital marketing. He's with a local firm, a pretty dynamic local firm, so he's doing quite well in his role. And our youngest is Dara, and Dara is involved in the practice. He's just after qualifying and we were hugely impressed with his results in that he got first in Ireland and fourth in the world in his final exam. So yeah, so he's a fair play to Dara. He's done a good job.

Doug Aitken:

He can't get brains and looks from his mother, surely?

Alan Farrelly:

He's been lucky he's grabbed both of them from her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's listened to her intently all along, yeah.

Doug Aitken:

I should explain. I know you well enough to crack that joke and get away with it hopefully, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, excellent. So that must be a source of pride having two of the three boys. Well, you're proud of all your children. I know as a father of three as well you're proud of all your children Absolutely, but especially having a couple of them involved in the firm.

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, yeah, and it's good, Doug, because obviously we've been looking with the team here in terms of growing the practice and setting in place the strategy as to 2028. And with that in mind, and people walking back, that I set it up in 1989, you can imagine that I'm getting to that age where people are starting to push me out of the place. So with that, with that in mind, we've been able to look at, you know, my exit in a very. It was a good challenge and a good discussion among the team, got it all organized and but that has allowed the two lads to come in and have a shareholding in the firm going forward. So I think you know it's good to be able to do that and for them to continue the business into the next generation. I think is great with the existing directors here, which they'll only learn from as well, you know.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, how has that whole process felt? Alan, talking about potential exit, I mean I know how you are. You're a driven guy, you're involved in everything and, by necessity, stepping back will be exactly that you won't have control, you won't be able to be as involved. Have you processed how that's beginning to feel yet?

Alan Farrelly:

Yes and no. And you know, at this stage, um, I'm just after losing, um, one of our directors here in the firm dog only last week, so still a still a little bit raw. After that, richard bernie, and one of our colleagues and just just passed away, um, and from a short illness there, and so that has sort of left a bit of a gap in terms of, you know, transitioning his clients across and you know, with me thinking of maybe stepping back in early 2028, while I had the plan in place, I certainly wasn't expecting poor Richard to take six, but the plan is quite clear that I will transition clients across the board to some of our up and coming associate directors and that they will start working with me to manage those clients over the next couple of years. So it'll be a soft introduction for them and a good run out period as well.

Alan Farrelly:

Doug, in terms of the managing director role, again, we are transitioning that work across and sharing it between the directors, which means that we're offloading it and then we're getting that level of consistency. There's no big change then. You know when I do exit, but the plan is, yeah, it has to be an exit, but I might stay on in a short-term capacity, maybe in one of the other companies, just in case there are clients that you know will consider that it's not good enough for me to be off the pitch and that I'm still around and because, look, there will be deals happening, there will be transactions happening and there'll be other people looking maybe to exit or retire or whatever, and it's just good to be there to support them through that transition. But definitely, you know, by by late 2028 and the plan is I'll definitely be off the pitch so a pretty hard exit.

Doug Aitken:

In some ways albeit you're transitioning now, but you'll be completely out yeah, other than the sister companies that you're working with.

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, and I think I think, doug, when I look at my career in the past I've been president of the Institute in Ireland here and I always felt that you know, when you serve your term, that you shouldn't really sit on because you start saying, well, this is the way we used to do it. Or you know, because you start saying, well, this is the way we used to do it. Or you start trying to influence people who now have to make that decision, and I don't want to be in that situation. I don't want to be in the chair still or in a chair still and trying to have influence over the decision. I think you need to stand back. I think you need to let the business breathe. I think you need to give back. I think you need to let the business breathe. I think you need to give you know autonomy to the new people stepping in and you know and give them confidence and let them grow it. And I think over the last two years we've put new ideas in place that you know has allowed the management team and the director team to step up and understand the way to run the practice. You know the processes we have, the procedures we have, but, at the same time, be adapting them to the change that is happening in the marketplace, and so we're actually all changing at the same time. So I'm now starting to change to the new way of thinking that is coming through and the new ways of doing things, as distinct from being somebody here that's inhibiting that change. So I think that's been an interesting journey over the last couple of years as well.

Alan Farrelly:

So I suppose, when you look at it, doug, it's probably been you talk about hard exit, but I think it's, um, it's I've been quite clear about it so started in 2023 and it was a five-year plan to exit. So, um, I think the biggest one will be to see if I can get my golf handicap down a little bit now over the next couple of years by trying to ease out, because I don't think you can have a hard stop. I think if you try and just stop after working five days a week, it's not really going to work. So I think I will have to. You know, the plan is that you know I'll stop coming in on a Friday and then maybe I'll stop coming in on a Monday, you know. So then I'm only working the three days during the middle of the weekend. That is the plan, and so next year I lose the Friday, the following year I lose the Monday, and the weekend's starting to get a wee bit longer, doug.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, I think that's very astute what you said, alan, about giving the team space to make their own decisions. Ironically, you're one of these people that wouldn't hold the firm back with its previous thinking. You know you are a forward thinking person, but I love that phrase about giving them space to breathe. How have you found that? Over the years? Because you've grown Farley Dullwhite from nothing to what it is now. So there's bound to have been several occasions where you've had to let go. You've had to trust, you've had to bring in people to do certain jobs. How do you find that whole process of letting go?

Alan Farrelly:

I think that's the easy bit, doug. I genuinely don't find that that's a difficult one at all, because I think if you trust your team, that's very, very easy and it's building. If you trust your team, that that's very, very easy and it's building that trust with your team. And having that open dialogue, that transparency in your decision making and not being afraid to be challenged, doug, I think is very important as well. So if you, you know, if you're open to being challenged and you don't, you don't go around and say, oh, why did that happen and why did this speak to me like that? But you know, I think there's a lot, of, a lot of mutual respect around the office. So, and I think that's very important, I think the other piece is recruitment.

Alan Farrelly:

So you know when you, when you are recruitment, when you are recruiting, we have, um, three things that we look at. Okay, one, are you a good fit for us? So, in other words, do you like us and do we like you? I think the second piece is how will you get on with the team? You know, when you come in, are you somebody that will just fit in very, very well, or are you going to be someone that's going to create a bit of a challenge. And three, can you do the job?

Alan Farrelly:

And we take it in that order, doug, because if you don't like me and I don't like you, well, there's not really much point in going forward. It's never really going to change. Two, if you're not going to come in and get on with the team, well, then I think we're both wasting our time because you're only going to upset people and that's not going to progress too well. And then, thirdly, can you do the job? So, technically, have you got the skills to do the job? That's probably the easiest one when you're out in the market looking for a qualifying agent.

Doug Aitken:

And yet the vast majority of firms do it the other way around. In fact, some of them omit the cultural part altogether. How would you say your culture has developed over the years, alan? I mean, I've always thought of you as having a strong culture, but we've made some deliberate, or you've made some deliberate steps over the years, articulating your values, for example and I loved what you said in recruitment there, that the fit has to be right. So there's two cultural elements before we even get to technical ability and whatnot. So how's culture developed over the years, would you say?

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah. So our purpose, doug, is all about achieving a better future together, and because we are a people-led firm, that all starts with us. So I think that is the piece that is absolutely crucial and that has never really changed, because we're always about our own team first and achieving a better future together. So it starts in-house. It's then what can we do for our clients. It's then what can we do for our clients, and it's then what can we do for the environment? And all our conversations, doug, is around about how can we achieve a better future together. And we see that even when we bring people in for interview, we actually take them through that and what that means. Some people will have seen it before they actually come for the interview generally if they're more senior, if they're younger people, and we go through that with them and how that feels. You know how our behaviors and towards each other and how we handle that and what our values are around that. So we've worked very hard on that over the last number of years and you've been an integral part in that and and that's been very much appreciated yourself and paul, and you know and I think that has really helped us to roll it out right across the firm and even again, you know, this wednesday we have a really big session with all our staff. We take them away every quarter, give them an update on how the firm is going, let them know how we're going in terms of our strategy, how that's working out. Look at our KPIs, doug. Share them openly and transparently with the staff, you know. Let them know what's happening in UHY, how that is growing, how it's developing, and generally we get a keynote speaker in to give them a little bit of an insight into, you know, what has happened, what is happening in the market, what is happening with, with leadership and development skills, what's happening with um personal development, what does that look like? And so we try to go a little bit off topic and we just don't have it technical. So we try to keep it away from technical because, you know, technical happens all the time.

Alan Farrelly:

And I think the other thing that's very important is that we spend a lot of time with our staff as well. So we have our staff away day on the 4th of July, so that's when we get all the team together, have a real bit of fun. The blindfolds go on and I get spun around and turned over and we, we just let our hair down and have a really good day. So, um, and I think that's very important as well it's just we close the office for the day and we all get together and have a bit of a bit of a party and see each other in a different light as well.

Alan Farrelly:

And what I do talk about that, doug, a lot is about the all blacks, and I talk to the staff about the all blacks and it's it's very important because as a squad, they meet for breakfast every morning. You know they all know something. Well, they all know about each other. It's not just superficial, it's it's more in depth. So they will know, they will know if people are suffering, they'll know if they're, if they're elated, they'll know where they are in life.

Alan Farrelly:

So and I think that's very important and I try to do that as much as I can doug to go around the office, say hello to everybody in the morning, because I think it is important, it doesn't take long to do and you know you get a little bit of feedback. People will ask you questions along the way. You know, know, and you know you just touch base. Maybe someone's grand is not feeling well, or maybe the child is a wee bit off or you know, and it's good to be able to just check in with people and make sure you know that that culture is there, that we just show that we are a people first round.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, absolutely. You made me think a number of things there, Alan, and I've been witness to the walk around the office with you. Yeah, it's lovely In terms of the care there. I mean, I guess the events of the last couple of weeks with poor Richard passing, you know, never have you had to demonstrate care more, I would guess, whether it's to Richard's family or your own family in the office. How have you managed that process, Alan, Because it must have been hugely difficult for you as an individual, never mind for the whole firm.

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, and sadly, doug, it's the second time it's happened to us, because Kevin Dahl, our founding partner and passed away in 2012 and with a very similar condition and in a short space of time as well, and so it is a difficult, like some people, and you know you have to put the arm around the shoulder and this time, and you know some some of the staff got it very, very hard when Richard left because he was actually working last Thursday week and you know he took very sick on the Friday and passed on the Saturday, so he had been working right up to the end and those people who were working with him on the Thursday really struggled after it happened because, you know, they didn't know was, was it having Richard involved in work? Was, was that what caused him to get sick? But it wasn't actually. And so, yeah, some of those guys got really hard and he was our, he was our director in charge in in Bad Brigandug, so all that team was really, really lost, lost. They're really, you know, they're really affected. So, again, you know, had to be well, didn't have to be there, but was there with them. I was there with them last weekend. In fairness, all the directors from the dock were there last Wednesday with all the team and by breaking. So that was good and it was up with them again this morning. So it's good just to be in with them, just touch base, and every conversation just comes back.

Alan Farrelly:

I, I, you know everybody says I still can't believe he's not here and that he's gone. So, um, yeah, it is. It is a challenge when something like that hits and you know, I see, even around a director group, you know, little things happen and what would richard have thought about that and what richard has said about that? Or he wouldn't have wanted us to do that. It was very interesting even last Friday, you know, and we were just talking about the staff, the staff and catch up this Wednesday, and you know, and Richard wouldn't want this and Richard wouldn't want that, you know. And but the thing about Richard was that he was always very supportive and it was never about Richard. He was always a team player, so it was always about the team and all the members of the staff in Bad Brigham would tell you that every day that he only ever cared about his team, you know. So you know you can see why you get that. You know, state of shock and state of loneliness.

Alan Farrelly:

Now, with the team you know you can see why you get that, you know, state of shock and state of loneliness now with the team. You know because they all, it went both ways, doug. They care for him and he cared for them you know?

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, man, fabulous legacy to leave as well, albeit we wish they hadn't had to leave it so soon.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In terms of your care, alan, as well, albeit, we wish they hadn't had to leave it so soon. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and in terms of your care, alan, as well. Again, you made me think of a few things, but I think the thing that gets me is realizing that everyone will have bad days, bad weeks, bad months. Even I lost my own father last October. I had a couple of health scares and whatnot, and there's always things going on in people's lives that, if we're not close enough to them, we have no idea what's going on. So how do you engender that feeling of we care about you but not being too intrusive and just allowing people to to talk? How do you actually manage that?

Alan Farrelly:

yeah, it is a balancing act, um, doug, because some people like to talk about it and others don't. Um, and it's it's knowing when to talk and when just to support and stand back and give people a little bit of space. So, again, we had one or two people maybe struggling a little bit with their exams, and our provision there is that we just don't go in and there's no point in kicking someone who went or died in a drug. So what we did was we got a sports coach in to spend a wee bit of time with them and show them what winning looks like and what winning feels like, and sort of building up the confidence a little bit, you know, and that has been great, and the staff really appreciate you going that little extra mile, you know, and some of the other staff. We got them a little bit of one-to-one coaching and which helped them build their confidence as well. And when you do that, though, you get it back tenfold, like the staff, when they just come out the other side of that dark period and you know that they just feel you were there for them when they need it.

Alan Farrelly:

And then we have an online facility as well, doug, for the staff, so when they are down or they hit a traumatic period or event that they can actually ring up the helpline, get a little bit of help. And we don't know anything about it. But they know it's there and again, with Richard's passing, we just again alluded to it gently in case anybody wanted to tap into it again. So we don't track anything, we just leave that open. We don't see that as a cost to the business at all, doug, we see it as something that is there, that it's a crutch, it's a support, it is a help.

Alan Farrelly:

And like this morning, even this morning one of our staff has gone down pretty bad with COVID, believe it or not, and just taken a very bad turn with it. So you know, we had another one of the staff. Her father-in-law is taken very ill and he lives down the country. She's just tracked down to the country. But again, we made a little bit of effort just to touch base with both of those today to say, listen, we're thinking about you and I think that's very important that we just keep close to our team. You know, and everybody does appreciate that too.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, absolutely, and you know we've actually seen it in your Gallup scores, which the Q12 measures team engagement, as you know, Alan, but we've actually seen it in your Gallup scores. You know the trend is massively upwards and full credit to you and the team for doing that. I want to go back to your town hall meetings that you talked about earlier. Maybe that's not the right phraseology, but these quarterly meetings with your team, when did you start those?

Alan Farrelly:

first of all, alan, we started about two years ago, doug, and had our first one two years ago, I think. Actually, you came across and started the process, so, and the directors sat in for the first hour of that session, if you remember it, and Doug and the doc and, and then I think you then spent the rest of the day with the staff and we didn't know what you were going to do, doug, so we had to trust you. Now, lucky enough, nobody walked out after the event and everybody said it was a really enjoyable day and got a whole pile from it. So that was really the first one, doug, and that's probably the one that stands out for everybody that they still recall that day pretty well. But we've done it quarterly since, doug. Obviously, the format has changed because you came over and spent a whole day with the guys, which was challenging for them at the same time, but very rewarding because they could see, you know, what changes that the director team was willing to make, you know, to get people more engaged. So engagement is absolutely critical for us and so every quarter we haven't missed one since, doug, and you know and generally what we do is two of the directors will take the meeting. We rotate it every time, so it's not the same all the time. We think that's very beneficial as well, because the style and format changes each time. The only piece that stays the same is that we have our values committee and they give out their rewards each quarter as well. So that has been great too and it's been a real stimulant in the firm, you know, and it's great to see people rewarded, and you know, for the behaviors and the values that they've espoused in that last quarter. So that's very good, and we obviously have the time to congratulate people who've done well under exams.

Alan Farrelly:

We recognize new starts, we recognize people who are leaving, you know, and then we we tried to have, as I said to you, and maybe a guest, and to do a little bit of a presentation and just as to what is what's happening out there. So we had a guy come in very recently to talk about his life story and very, very different, because he went through a very dark period, doug, and was on the precipice and was pulled back, and for him to come in and tell that story there was actually the office was quite quiet for the rest of the day as people tried to decipher the message and, but I think the message was you know, even in the darkest times there is still support there for you. And you know, and I thought it really left a good message. And and again, it was so different that you know the staff really did appreciate it, because you know it may not be them, it may be somebody in the family that's really struggling, and just to know that there is help for them out, there was just something that was very strong. I know it was just so different.

Alan Farrelly:

So, yeah, I think it's, you know, I think that's good, I think it's, you know, I think that's good. And you know we've done other ones on, you know, other sessions around just having a little bit of fun. And you know we've one of our directors who likes to get a guitar and get up and sing when he thinks he can sing, but he won't be in any rock band anytime soon. But you know it just causes a wee bit of fun and you know, I think we've had a little bit of fun around it as well. So it's not all about keeping it serious doug, it's being out there having the balance between fun and and, at the same time, you know, getting the job still has to get done and the clients still have to be serviced and we still have to deal with it somehow yeah, how have the team reacted to those, alan?

Doug Aitken:

I mean, at the outset I would imagine it's just oh, it's a day out the office, so that's got to be good. But how have they reacted Now that they know it's a quarterly thing? What do they look forward to? What's your feedback been generally?

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, I think it's a good one, doug, because sometimes you feel if the session has been good, um, you know the banter for the next couple of days is really really good, um, and the vibe around the office is lifted again, you know. So, um, I think people do look forward to it. Yeah, people get out of the office for a couple of hours, you know, um, enjoy it, get it, get a little bit of an update, but even the update. You know what's happening at UHY International, which I try to do twice a year. You know the guys like to hear that. They like to hear that they're part of something bigger. You know they like to understand what's happening. You know what change is happening.

Alan Farrelly:

Obviously, we've talked about other things that are happening in the market, like PE, doug, and explained to staff. You know what does that mean and what does it sound like and what are we hearing back, because staff hear this term a lot and don't really know what it means, and it's a wee bit like humanize, the numbers that we talked about at the beginning, and I think it's very important. Pe is something that is out there, it's alive, it's well and it's having a huge impact on the profession. So just to be able to explain that to the staff, and the staff do come back to you afterwards and say, wow, I've heard all about this, didn't really know, but if my friend is working in a firm where there's PE and you know this is happening there, or they're doing this and they're doing that and they're seeing the changes, so it is interesting.

Alan Farrelly:

But I definitely think the sense of camaraderie that comes out of it is. It brings the two opposites together, doug, which is, I believe, is crucially important, because you just never want the demo and us happening. So it is a great opportunity to bring all your team together and we try to mix them up in the day. You know that not everybody's sitting, so you're actually maybe getting talking to somebody you haven't talked to in a couple of weeks, you know. So I think that's good as well. So I think it builds the team a wee bit stronger and and you know, we always try to give them something that they take away, that they have something to think about for the next couple of days. You know that they can either implement or, you know, have have a team member with something that they've heard, or, you know, develop something or come back to us in relation to something that they picked up on the day that we can maybe develop a little bit further, which can be also very useful.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah, I just think it's brilliant you do these things, alan. There's so many firms where the people, the team, are just not informed. They just don't know what's going on, they're kept from decisions. I had it recently in a smaller firm in the northeast where day one with the partners, day two with the team, and they were worried the partners were worried about the team and their involvement and their engagement. But the minute you start talking and involving them, they perk up, the scales come off their eyes and suddenly they you know, they know we're going there. Okay, and this is how we're to behave. Okay, and this is our core purpose. Okay, I can get behind that. And suddenly they've got different criteria against which they can measure their work, as opposed to just getting through the jobs, just creating the numbers, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah even that decision, alan, to do quarterly town halls.

Doug Aitken:

There must have been a bit the old style accountant in your head going in pnl mode, going hang on. That's a lot of hours times a lot of chargeable time that we're losing. How did you rationalize that decision?

Alan Farrelly:

um, I did that calculation many times though and I still do um yeah, I promise you, I promise you um, and I I have it down to what's been lost in production per hour now, at this stage, um so yeah, yeah so, but look at once I got there and the numbers in my head, it it's gone.

Alan Farrelly:

Then you know, and no, all joking aside, I see this as an investment in our future, doug, and I think when you look at it and you look at your staff loyalty and you look at your staff turnover and you look at your recruitment policy and you look at your engagement with your staff and your ability to get potential new people in by getting CVs in or whatever, I think it does make a difference. And even non-clients, but people who would stop me and talk to me would say to me oh, my God, are you never off social media? And it's not me, it's on social media, it's our head of marketing that would drive all of that. And they would put out details about these events and what's happening in the firm. And you know that causes a different discussion.

Alan Farrelly:

And even when you go out to clients, then and the client said, oh, you know that causes a different discussion. And even when you go out to clients, then and the client said, oh, you did this event with the staff or you were here with the staff, or you know how did you find all of that? You know and you explain to them the journey you're on, doug, and I think your clients really appreciate that you care about your staff so much and I think you're you're paid times and times over. So, yeah, you're right, jokingly, we look about the time, the downtime that we have, and but what I will say, doug, is you know we have our budget for the year and we hit target in january, february, march, apr.

Alan Farrelly:

You know there's obviously something happening that you know, when you think about it, the staff are still doing the job, even though there's that little bit of downtime. But you know, the staff all look away to the staff appreciation day. They're talking about it the day after the Christmas party, you know. And the day after the staff appreciation day they're then talking about the Christmas party, and you know, and the day after the staff appreciation day they're then talking about the Christmas party. You know what I mean. Or if it's a town hall meeting, yeah, what are the guys going to cover the next time? And you know there is an inquisitiveness with the staff. They like to learn, they like to know, they like to be fed back. You know where we're going, what's the journey, what is the plan. You know, keep us involved, keep us informed. And to me, doug, what you get back in return is staff loyalty. So you don't have, you know, people looking to leave. You have longer engagement with your staff members.

Alan Farrelly:

I remember being at an event in London a couple of years ago where they were talking about staff turnover and they were saying the average stay of a person is about 2.3 years. I was with a firm, a UHY firm, recently in Copenhagen and theirs was 8.8 years. So it just shows you if you put the time and effort into your staff, you know. And what does that do, Doug, if you have to bring in a replacement? Well, it takes them three, four, five, six months to readjust to their new environment and new systems, new procedures, new processes, the cost of getting them in. You know the disturbance to the team. Will they fit in? Will they not fit in, how will they? You know, how will they adapt to the changing environment. So you have all that.

Alan Farrelly:

So I think, having that staff loyalty and bringing your people on your journey with you, they believe in you more you get more staff loyalty. And really we've seen that so many times over. And even if somebody is approached and we're seeing it more often that our staff are now being approached, which is a pity it's a good thing and a bad thing. It's recognition that we're training and developing them right. It's recognition that we're doing the right thing and other firms want to tap into that. But at the same time we find in 90% of the cases that people say, yep, we've been tapped up, but no, we're not interested in going. And that's great to hear, absolutely great to hear.

Doug Aitken:

I love your purpose as well, alan. Your core purpose achieve a better future together. How did you find that process of articulating a purpose and also then communicating it with the team?

Alan Farrelly:

I think it was hard. It was hard to find it, it was challenging. We got to the nub of it fairly quickly, doug, about a better future. But the rest of it we really struggled with. So achieving a better future together, we struggled a wee bit around that, but articulating it to the staff, giving meaning and a sense to it, I think that was the easy piece and the good thing about it, doug.

Alan Farrelly:

When we got there, when we got our core purpose, we went with our values wheel and we went with our behavioral channels and we left that with the staff. We didn't go in there and set that ourselves. So we set our core purpose and we asked the staff to build our values and behaviors around that. So they bought into it immediately, doug, and they knew what the journey was and they understood the journey because they said it themselves. And you know and it's, it's great to see, and you wouldn't believe, doug, but we had an international day in the office and two weeks ago, so our our valuesail and is now in the office in eight different languages, oh wow yeah, I love that.

Doug Aitken:

Excellent. Please forgive this brief interruption to the podcast. Alan has been talking about core purpose. You'll find in the show notes below a link to a business breakthrough on core purpose which speaks more about that important subject. Let's get back to the podcast Now. It's a brilliant point. The more the team are involved, the more they buy into it, or not?

Doug Aitken:

as the case may be, but you're actually, when you articulate core purpose, when you articulate values and the vision of where you're going, and the vision of where you're going, you're actually giving people better criteria to decide do I belong in this tribe or is there another tribe for me, which I think is being really honest, isn't it? So if people go, the chances are they know that there's another tribe for them and that they just don't fit in here, which we all probably knew anyway. Does that make sense? Does that resonate?

Alan Farrelly:

It does, doug, and the interesting one is a couple of the staff that were with us 20 years plus. They really struggled with it and a couple of them left over it because they just thought the adjustment was going to be too big and the change was going to be too much for them, and which is is fine. Also, you know, because sometimes you need you need change for more change to happen, and they obviously felt that this change was maybe going to be too much for them and it was better that they moved on rather than stayed and had to change with the firm as well. So, yeah, so that that was a little bit of a surprise for me, doug. I wasn't really expecting that and you know, there were people in pretty senior positions as well, but it just showed you, if you're not in the right bus, if you're not in the right tribe, maybe there's another tribe for you, you know.

Doug Aitken:

Yeah.

Alan Farrelly:

And I've talked to them since I I still I'm still in contact with them and and I'm very interesting that they, you know they, they tell me that, yeah, they're in new jobs, but it's not the same it's oh wow, interesting yeah yeah, so it's interesting yeah yeah, absolutely okay.

Doug Aitken:

Um, alan, really enjoyed our talk. Um, over the last. Well, it's almost an hour it's flown by and so much more that I could have asked you as well. Um, if I'm going to give you a parting question, and I'm harking back to the 80s our, our heady in the 80s and I want to ask you just in closing how accounting has changed over the years, but how it's stayed the same as well. Could you answer that?

Alan Farrelly:

Yeah, I think profit loss and balance sheet stay the same, and so you're still looking at numbers, doug, and you're still looking at numbers, doug, and you're still looking at profit on the bottom line. So you still have, you know, your same balance sheet. You need to have your working capital in order. You need to be able to collect your money in time. You need the credibility to be able to pay your creditors in time. You need to have your be able to pay your creditors on time. You need to have your proper funding in place and you know.

Alan Farrelly:

So I think a lot of that has stayed the same, and I think what has changed is it's got quicker and it's the information that you have. You can make decisions with much more information, much more informed information. There is far more data, there is far more detail and that's available at the touch of a button now. So real-time reporting, I think, is the biggest change that has happened. But I think the fundamentals of you know making a profit and using your working capital to run your business, and you know I think those things have um stood the test of time and and I think they will for quite, quite considerable time going forward as well, doc, you know yeah, fab.

Doug Aitken:

Okay, alan, thank you so much for joining us today. Really enjoyed you having a guest on the podcast.

Alan Farrelly:

Thank, Thank you for having me, Doug.

Doug Aitken:

You're very welcome. Thanks again. You've just heard Alan Farley talk about the importance of investing time in your people and that investment in time generates a return over time. It's the importance of articulating what's your core purpose in your firm and how each individual can get attached to that. It's the importance of getting values right in your firm and also showing people a vision of where your firm is headed, all of which enables your team members and future team members to decide do I belong to this firm? Do I belong in this tribe? We teach these things and more in the Accountants Growth Academy. If you'd like to find out more, go to remarkablepracticecom or you'll find a link in the show notes.

Paul Shrimpling:

You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanizethhenumbersonline. You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a podcast discussion with John Thompson. If you like what you're hearing and you want more, please go to your favourite podcast platform or go to humanizethenumbersonline, you know even the great sports people have got coaches and those coaches aren't really coaches Once they get to a certain level.

Speaker 4:

You're not going to teach Roger Federer to improve his forehand, for instance, but he values the fact that somebody's there just talking to him, listening to his problems, nudging him in the right direction, reminding him of what was really good. Because, again, we as accountants, we forget over time some of the great stuff we do, now even ourselves. I might do a support call with a firm and they'll say, oh, we haven't really done very much in the advisory space in the last month. And my stock answer is just run me through your diary and there's always stuff they've forgotten about, and that's in the last four weeks.