Humanise The Numbers - for ambitious accountants in practice

Stephan Meier, Professor and Author – Part Two

• Paul Shrimpling

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In the second part of this 2-part podcast discussion with Stephan Meier, world-renowned author of The Employee Advantage, you'll be able to hear Stephan unpack a large number of insights, ideas and strategies that could ultimately deliver a competitive advantage to you and your firm. 

So please join Douglas, my colleague, Stephan and I on the second part of this podcast at humanisethenumbers.online.

Paul Shrimpling:

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Stephan Meier:

Think about you're a manager and you have Paul and Doug on your team and they're like the best team members that you have. What they're doing. They're really, really good at what they're doing. Now do I want Paul and Doug to like do something else you know, work on a different project? No, because Paul and Doug are my best, you know, our best worker. I want to keep them. I want to what is called like technical terms, like talent hoarding. The problem with that is Paul and Doug will eventually leave the organization if they don't have those opportunities. So it's important to like make sure that the managers are aware of this, that they're incentivized to do that, so that's clear from the top, that that's what we're doing, because it's good for the organization, and so they can't just think about their own small team. They have to think about the health of the organization and the development of their talent.

Paul Shrimpling:

On part one of this podcast discussion with Stefan Meyer, we unpacked some key overview insights around building an employee advantage in your firm. We're about to dive into the detail, into the how to's around building an employee advantage for your firm. Let's go to that podcast discussion with Stefan now. So I think it'd be prudent for us to ask you to unpack the key elements of those four motivators. Which one would you choose to start with?

Stephan Meier:

That's. You know, it's like choosing between my three kids. They're all important, you know, and you can also not like substitute one, you know, just doubling down on one yeah and the other.

Stephan Meier:

But let me just start, like how I actually laid it out in the book I'm not sure whether that's like the, the in the order of importance and then, once I do it, I actually want to come back to something you said paul about, about like how can we learn those as leaders? And I think there is a little bit of a bias what people think can be learned and what they think is like innate, and I want to come back to that. So the four motivators is the first one is purpose is the first one is purpose. I call it shoot for the moon because I tell the story about like NASA who when President Kennedy took over, he then changed kind of the mission of the space agency in the US to being like the goal is like to being a man on the moon. And what is interesting about purpose everybody has a mission statement, every company has a purpose statement somehow. But in order to actually make it valuable, you know, it needs to be first of all a mission and the purpose that is not just, you know, we want to be the best, or like we want to change the world. It needs to be something that is tangible but beyond kind of, you know, just making money.

Stephan Meier:

There's very few people who get up in the morning and they're like today I'm going to increase the return of investing capital of my firm by 1% and I'm so jazzed to do that. Most get up is like solving a big problem. You know helping solve something problem, you know helping us and solve something. But but what is good about, what is also interesting about the nasa story? There's this famous quote that many people know about. The janitor at nasa said like I'm not mopping the floor, I bring the man to the moon so that, like everybody in the organization, um, how, even if they're somehow, um, not connected directly to the mission, they're not actually the space engineer, the rocket scientists. He even felt that. So it's not so easy to do that as an organization, to actually know what is the why and then making sure that everybody feels that why in their daily basis I mean maybe not every single second, but hopefully on a regular basis they feel really they're contributing to something bigger. Stefan.

Doug Aitken:

I was intrigued by what Unilever did and encouraging their employees to go on a course to learn about purpose and also to establish the link course to learn about purpose and also to establish the link with their own personal purpose. I thought I was really intrigued by that. Can you tell us, yeah, more about that?

Stephan Meier:

yeah.

Stephan Meier:

So unilever did like and it it's a lot started with actually their customer journey.

Stephan Meier:

You know there's like brand with purpose and so part of their strategy was to like every single brand, um, within Unilever needs to have some sort of a higher purpose, and connected to sustainability was a big part.

Stephan Meier:

But then they took this further and think, like you know, if we do that we also need our employees to be on board and our employees to feel kind of the purpose.

Stephan Meier:

So they're they're older employees go through a one day at least, or sometimes longer, purpose workshop where they figure out you know that's my purpose and then also how the purpose is connected or not to what they're doing within Unilever and and some will also in that journey figure out you know, maybe I shouldn't be here, maybe I'm not, I'm passionate about something else and that should not be. So it's kind of alignment between the purpose as well and the organization, but also this discovery journey for the employees to figure out. That's actually my journey and I think it leads to more motivation of the ones who stay but also some sort of assorting of those who are not, and it's an important piece of their strategy and it's very successful in how they're doing it, but it's an investment. You know, like they have to go to those purpose jobs. I mean they have to. Again, being very intentional about this, I mean actually the best story about the purpose in the book is, you know, is about accounting KPMG.

Paul Shrimpling:

You know KPMG? Yeah, the KPMG stories.

Stephan Meier:

And I mean I now tell the story over and over again because it's so powerful. And so KPMG a couple of years ago started with that 10,000 stories challenge. The idea was is it okay if I tell the story?

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, please do so.

Stephan Meier:

The idea was, like you know, to actually show their accountants. You know that there is not just numbers, but the numbers that they're doing do something. You know KPNG was famously involved in when Nelson Mandela was elected, and they helped to verify that. I mean, there's many historic examples where they were part of you know bigger things and while they were doing the numbers, the numbers actually had a much, much bigger impact, and so they thought, rightly so in order for the janitor equivalent the janitor to think I'm bringing a man to the moon, you know.

Stephan Meier:

They thought like I can't tell people what their purpose is, they have to feel it themselves. So they created that campaign which was called 10,000 Stories, where they said you know, come up with your own story. What you're doing on a daily basis has a bigger impact. And they thought like well, gonna be hard, you know, we need to. They started it in the summer. They said, like if by thanksgiving, we have 10 000 stories, uh, you know, everybody gets two days off, um, so, so I thought like they need to incentivize this now. Within, within like a month or two, a couple of weeks, they got 10,000 stories already and people were creating those stories going forward. I forgot the numbers, but they had like 40,000 or something stories at the very end by Thanksgiving.

Stephan Meier:

And it really hit the nerve of like people wanted to think about like what am I? I'm actually, and there were all individual stories. It's not like you can't tell them top down, it has to come from themselves and, as a result, I mean that's an amazing story. But it also then led to, you know, and all those metrics. You know, they became like those metrics. Uh, you know, they became like uh, rose in the rank of, like, best places to work, um, their engagement levels went up, their, their quit rates went down. So it really hit the nerve through that purpose and made in that connection. You know I'm I'm doing the numbers, I'm mopping the floor, but it it's actually a piece of a much, much bigger thing and those stories were extremely powerful and I think it shows exactly how purpose really works.

Stephan Meier:

It has to come from the individual. They have to feel it and I sometimes tell leaders you know, if the people cannot tell in their own word what the why is you're doing a terrible job on the why. What the why is you're doing a terrible job on the why? Uh, you know, if they just recite, kind of what is painted on the wall, um, you know that's not. They don't feel it. They have to. You have to tell them. So what's the purpose, what's your purpose in, what's the firm's purpose? And they have to being able to express it in their own words. Yeah, so that that's motivator number one. Can I just just I?

Paul Shrimpling:

think it's worth also pointing out there, because that's what stood out for me was okay. They incentivized two days holiday, get to 10 000. The incentives now vanished. There isn't one and it still ends up being 42 000 after the incentives incentive's gone out of the way. The incentive wasn't necessary, arguably because people got it. They got it and, by definition, by collecting stories, you are also giving your team a voice as well.

Stephan Meier:

Yeah, as well as connecting them with a core purpose. It was a piece of genius and then they also used it. You know they make like cool posters as well. You know they actually then leveraged it in multiple ways, but I think the most important one and and you're absolutely right, paul, it wasn't like they were coming up for stories for those two days, because, like weeks and weeks after, everybody already got the two days. Yeah, it just hit the nerve that like people wanted to think about, like what is my impact, that I'm having?

Paul Shrimpling:

yeah, it's that intrinsic motivation, isn't it rather than extrinsic?

Paul Shrimpling:

exactly yeah, exactly, please forgive this brief interruption. Stefan's talking about purpose building meaning into the work that you do. If you want to dive into more detail, please go to the business breakthrough on purpose and you'll find the link to that business breakthrough in the show notes. Let's get back to Stefan now. Brilliant, so that sort of dives into the purpose piece jugular, that's not. Thank you very much. It's a key component of all the work we do with all the firms that we work with is. Come on then tell me where the meaning is behind the work that you do. You know why you're here. What's, what's your backstory? And that kpmg um 10 000 posters bit is uh, is just uh blew me away when I uh discovered the merits of that. Um, love it, love it. So that's number one that's number one of them.

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, yeah, one of the children children, um, the uh.

Stephan Meier:

Another one um is um is autonomy, uh, so people are really uh motivated and engaged when they're empowered. Now, in order to get autonomy, you know you need you need trust. That's kind of the flip side. Um, you can, you can't have autonomy without trust because you need to kind of give up control and, as you said before, paul and Doug, you know we're all kind of a little bit control freaks, I mean, I certainly am is not so easy and and it needs trust, but it is a very, very important motivator if people feel trusted and, as a result, then empowered uh to you know, do um make their own decisions and have discretion in making important uh decisions.

Paul Shrimpling:

So this empowerment, autonomy and trust is is the second, is the second one so how does, how does a manager or a leader actually help build that autonomy and establish level of trust that didn't exist before?

Stephan Meier:

yeah, it's a it's a very good point, and I think like one of the misconceptions about autonomy is is that leaders can step back. You know they're not engaged as much, where, if you think about, like the much hated micromanager, you know that's a person who, like, is constantly in your business, uh, in to control, and the misconception with like doing less control is like stepping back, you know, like not being engaged as much. But the problem with that is then you know all the interaction that we're having is about failures, because eventually stuff will not go perfect. And then you know I just just you know that the mistake is like, say, like dog, you know you go, you know you're in charge of that, um, I see you at the end of the project. Now you know there's going to be stuff in the in the meantime that doesn't go well, and so then I'm saying dog, I mean, of course I meant this and now you're going completely off the rail.

Stephan Meier:

And so I think the sweet spot is what I call like being an engaged coach, so being frequently involved, but not to control, but actually to set up empowerment for success. So setting up, setting this up for success, being having constant check-ins, not check-ins to actually control, but giving feedback to make sure that it doesn't go, does it go in the right direction? And I think that's what employees want, team members want, they want like guide, they want involvement, um, but they want to have their, their being empowered and having autonomy to do so, and that then also creates that trust, because they're perpetually like in smaller steps. You know, I'm still kind of involved because you can't step back. You still have to be frequent, but more as a coach instead of a controller. Stefan, just on that piece.

Doug Aitken:

Sorry, paul, but more as a coach instead of a controller. Is that the difference in between? Sorry, Paul, but I'm intrigued about this piece about the autonomy part. We encourage firms to find their purpose. We encourage them to build out a values and behavior suite to write down what the culture is in that firm, and we also really encourage them to have a vivid vision, a five-year picture, of what they want their future firm to look like. And the way I describe it is it's almost like showing people the boundaries but then putting them in that field with boundaries that stretch quite a bit away, and saying have fun. Have fun in this field, because you know why we're here, you know how to behave and you know where we're going. So, yeah, and the brackets to that, I guess, would be what else do you need? So I'm not saying that these three things cover everything. You know. I love the definition of the engaged coach, for example, but to what extent do you think they provide a lot of guidance?

Stephan Meier:

purpose values yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, like what you're talking about, doug, is super important.

Stephan Meier:

You know, if I don't know what the strategy is, what the goal is, what we're here for, I mean it's very difficult to be empowered. You know, I need to know, I need transparency in you know what is the purpose, what are we doing, what is our strategy as well. So you need to in an autonomous and empowered environment, you need to share a lot. You know that's what we're doing, that's where we're going. We agreed, you know the leadership team agreed that we want to do X, y and Z, and now you figure out, kind of the path to get there, and I think that's what you're talking about. You know what are the boundaries, like being very clear about that's what the goal is, the is the purpose, the meaning, but also the strategy of our organization and now you figure it out, for you know a big piece, a small piece, kind of how to get there and I'm, I'm here to support you, yeah, in that journey to that, to that goal isn't it?

Paul Shrimpling:

isn't it also about the connection with the job that you're doing this week or today? That's connected with the core purpose and how the meaning shows up and how it takes us towards the vision and how by if I behave in the right way're not around, though, within the one-to-ones if it's a weekly one-to-one or a daily one-to-one, whatever their preference is there's. It's not and I love your line, it's not a monitoring job. You know you're not there to monitor. You're there to coach and help them develop, develop the skills at the right level, and I know we're going to come on to that in a second um but it's also building the connections. Is it about building the connections? Yes, with strategy, yes With purpose, yes With vision, but yes, how. What you do today and this week, yeah, enables that, but also you seeing progress on a daily, weekly basis too. Is that a fair yeah?

Stephan Meier:

that's a very fair one. I mean, I think like that's and and it bleeds a little bit in the third you know, into the third motivators.

Stephan Meier:

But if you actually see that what you're doing has an impact, you know what your skills and tasks that you're doing right now does something. I mean that's a really important part of feeling good about yourself. I mean just think about your own job. I mean if you're reflecting every day, it's like you know, today I did X, and X was actually an important piece in maybe that bigger machinery. I mean that's very satisfying or like the worst is like you know. Maybe that bigger machinery I mean that's very satisfying or like the worst is like you know, I have no idea what I'm doing and how it fits in. That's completely demotivating. Then I was like, well, what am I doing here? I don't know.

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, paul, brilliant. We've got a little short report, one of our business breakthroughs, on that progress principle, which will drop it um to the uh the show notes so people can access that, because it was a piece of. I don't know if you come across the progress principle, stefan, um, there's a piece of research 12 000 um diary entries captured to then show that actually even in a declining business you could find a really good manager who was helping everyone see progress on a daily basis. But similarly, in a really progressive, successful business you might find a bad manager Define bad, I know, but you know a less successful manager who's not doing that and actually the engagement of the team are drifting off. It's fascinating.

Stephan Meier:

But I'll stick that in the show notes. I'm going to check this out. For sure, I will send a copy.

Paul Shrimpling:

When we've got it ready, I will send it to you and, yeah, I'll give you the link to the book as well. Really powerful. So purpose is key, Autonomy is key.

Stephan Meier:

Yeah, number three is what I call just right tasks. Um, I mean this. The psychology term is competence and and it means kind of a feeling of you know that your skills are optimally utilized.

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, tell us the story about your son, and he's reading stefan.

Stephan Meier:

I just thought that was exactly so I call it um, uh, I call it just Tasks because it's related. Yeah, I tell the story about my son. He's now he's turning 15 in June, but when he was younger, you know, he needed to read half an hour every single day. That was required by school. And I mean it's maybe not unbelievable, but it was unbelievable for me at that point, like how much I struggled with him reading those half an hour. I mean I fought so much with him and I like told him like, dude, I mean, just come home, read half an hour, you can do whatever you want. Afterwards, you can play FIFA until your eyes are squared. I mean, just read half an hour. I mean that's all I, and just do it when you come home. No, I was struggling. I was such a pain Until one day so it was fair to say he was not an avid reader at all Until one day he dragged me into a bookstore and said like, like, look, I want to buy this set of books.

Stephan Meier:

And I was like henrik. I mean, yes, of course. Like you know, for me it was like christmas and easter and every single holiday come together. It's like, of course. And he was even which was not the smartest part. He was like I using I will use my birthday money to do that. I mean I would have paid like half my paycheck for like books to give him and I was like, okay, fine, and it was real books. You know, it was not like he would look at like football books and like picture books. It was real books.

Stephan Meier:

But what it was the series was called my weird school um by dan goodman and it and it was a just right book. It was just right for his skills. It was not a baby book, as he would say when it's um, when it's too easy. And he wanted to read harry potter when he was six years old. I mean, after like two sentences, I mean he couldn't understand anything and it was also frustrating.

Stephan Meier:

When he was just right, that was extremely motivating. It was like pushing him a little bit but he understood. And then after he finished that one, you know, I bought him then from my paychecks many more of those and once he mastered that they became baby books. So you had to move on to the next series. Now, this is how kids learn, but I think it's a very, very universal trade. What motivates people when your skills are underutilized? You know, when you do something that is too simple, it's very boring, but also when you're too stretched, you know, when you're working on a task that is really beyond how you're trained or what you know, it's also extremely frustrating. There is this sweet spot of this just right task that really motivates, and now the challenging is those just right tasks move, as my son became something that he mastered became boring.

Stephan Meier:

You have to now move on and people actually leave organizations, mainly because they don't learn anything new. That's the number one reason people leave. They're like stuck. And so now the challenge is for leaders to figure out what are those just right tasks, match the skills of their employees to those tasks and constantly update, which is a hard problem to do. And I think there is an old school and the new school way of personalization. Old school is just talking to people. Old school personalization is like I talk to you, paul, and say how are you doing? What is your skill? Are you happy with your tasks? You want to know something you know. And then you, in this conversation, you figure out. You know Paul, actually he's very ambitious, he wants to do something new, he wants to get a stretch assignment and he's really interested in rugby.

Stephan Meier:

So, maybe there is like something related to rugby or like social media or something of the skills which I don't know yet, and then I have a conversation with dog. So that's kind of the old school way. There is now also technology that can help in doing so, and more and more firms are now implementing some technological solutions. So for firms, those are then like what's called like internal marketplaces, which are basically platforms where employees can go on those platforms and say like look, I have this and this position, this function, I have those skills, but I would be interested in learning something new. And then the platform matches the employees then to projects within the firm, to somebody in a different division needs a project and doesn't want to hire a full-time equivalent, and there's like I would love to have somebody work part a little bit on a project that is about X, y and Z, and then over time the system will learn, you know, and will personalize.

Stephan Meier:

It's a little bit like Netflix. That's what AI is good for, you know Netflix knows. Oh, paul watches a lot of rugby stuff, so let's show him more rugby stuff. And Doug couldn't care less about rugby, so let's show him football stuff, because I see he watches a lot of football stuff. Now it could be that even Paul gets bored with rugby and like starts to watch nature documentaries. And now suddenly Netflix is like oh oh, he doesn't watch. He doesn't watch rugby that much anymore, let's show him more nature documentary. And so that's how then the personalization happens, obviously on the customer side, but I think the same could potentially lead to those just right tasks within firms.

Doug Aitken:

To what extent does the manager play a role in that? What role does the manager play.

Stephan Meier:

The manager plays a huge role, because the problem a little bit is like think about your manager and like, you have Paul and Doug on your team and they're, like, the best team members that you have. What they're doing? They're really really good at what they're doing. Now do I want Paul and Doug to like do something else? You know, work on a different project? No, because paul and dog are my best. You know of our best worker. I want to keep them. I want to what is called like technical terms, like talent hoarding. The problem with that is, paul and dog will eventually leave the organization, um, if they don't have those opportunities. So it's important to like make sure that the managers are aware of this, that they're you know that they're incentivized to do that. So that's clear from the top, that that's what we're doing, um, because it's good for the organization, and so they can't just think about their own small team. They have to think about the health of the organization and the development of their talent.

Paul Shrimpling:

It was the statistics around that that shocked me, stefan, because we see it a lot in the firms that we come across that they want to hang on to the best people in their teams. They're reluctant to share their expertise with other teams, understandably so. But there was a stat in the book about you know, 83% of the top publicly traded companies report that talent hoarding is a major problem 83%. You're like, wow, this needs tackling. And then we're back into that progress space, aren't we? All of your team want to feel as though they're making progress, reading the right book. That's right for them.

Paul Shrimpling:

The next skill that's right for them, within their capability.

Stephan Meier:

Profound. Yeah, I think it's a big issue and there is something top-down like the top leader has to set an example and like set the tone. There is also, you know, part of it is if it just feels like and I'm, I'm giving talent, that feels a little one-sided, but like the flip side also, I get talent as well. You know, if there is another project, I actually get from another team somebody who helps out, and that's like the fluid once the system is taking off, um, it's, it can be very, very powerful.

Stephan Meier:

I'm I'm working on a case right now with mastercard who implemented this, such an internal marketplace, um, and and they having enormous. They call it unlocked because the idea is kind of to unlock talent and unlock opportunities and it's very powerful. I think they started shortly after the pandemic with that system and they by now have unlocked like a million hours of work that people work on those different projects and it's beneficial then to the managers as well. Once they understand it's not just give, it's also take, and Paul and Doug otherwise will leave the firm completely. The best talent are not going to stick and so if you give them opportunities, they're actually going to stay within the organisation much longer.

Paul Shrimpling:

I remember reading Richard Branson's one of Richard Branson's books a long time ago and highlighting this quote that you then bring up in the book as well Train people well enough so they can leave if they want and progress in their career, but then treat them well enough so that they don't want to and I just think that's just a delightful reference point career, but then treat them well enough so that they don't want to. And if it gets too low? So I just think that's just uh, just a delightful, uh reference point is that there was. I was once told stephan, it's like well, um, paul, are you, are you investing enough time, effort and energy and money in training and developing your team? And say well, uh, no, because if I do that they might leave. He says well, well, don't train them so that they get. You know they're, you know their knowledge is redundant and they'll stay with you. It's like that's really good strategy it's like exactly.

Paul Shrimpling:

Oh, I didn't think of it like that I didn't think of it like that. It's like, wow, yeah, train them. Just they might leave, but don't train them and they stay. You're in deep, deep, deep waters. Uh, brilliant, um, yeah, I think, um, getting that just right task, sense of progress. And then the next one, and then the next one. I was working with this leadership group this week and we were talking about what if every team members 360 people in this firm, what if every team member, every quarter, felt as though they'd made a move into a new bracket, a new category of just right task?

Stephan Meier:

I just think that's a piece of genius a new bracket, a new category of just right task. I just think that's a piece of genius. Um, yeah, there is this friend of mine I quote him and uh, he has a, he has a recruiting web page and he recommends people if you haven't learned something in the last six months, you should leave. And um, I mean that, I think, was probably true all the time, but it becomes even more relevant nowadays where, like you know, the half-life of skills are just declining so fast so that, like, we need to learn and and and develop constantly our skills yeah, there's that.

Paul Shrimpling:

Half-life is a reference to um. How slow it takes for a nuclear matter to degrade, isn't it? But actually, actually, knowledge is degrading so much faster now than it was even you know three or four years ago right, really, really important. Um, yeah, brilliant, so we've um, we've won the game. Then have we so the the last one.

Stephan Meier:

Yeah, the the last one. It's the youngest one, but but I love her so much it's actually a really important one. So I call it Working Together Works. It's about relatedness and social connection and I think it's a very powerful way.

Stephan Meier:

Whenever you work, whenever you played in a team sport, you know you kind of understand that, like you know, if the team spirit is right, you can achieve things that individual members or even the collective of the individuals you know is much greater than like than what those individuals have. So but in order to create that team spirit or cult, corporate culture and working together works needs a lot of intentionality in actually making sure that you know the right people meet um in the right place and the interactions are positive. And and it's interesting, you know, when I now talk a lot about with leaders, also about remote work and their hybrid work strategy, and I often hear you know like remote work doesn't work because you know the culture suffers, corporate culture suffers and or a variation of that is, you know, the water cooler moments are not happening, and I always remind them is it just because we're physically together doesn't create a good culture? In fact, you know, when we were all in the office, like I don't know, 40% of workplaces had like toxic work. Cultures In fact, you can be much, much meaner if you're together. Cultures In fact, you can be much, much meaner if you're together.

Stephan Meier:

You know, microaggressions really blossom when you're in the same room, so just being physically together doesn't create a great culture. And also, you know those water cooler moments. You know you need to be intentional about those because we all know we're hanging out with the people. We already know the people we like, the people on our team, and like creating those spontaneous interactions with. Certainly things are very, very important. I'm also thinking, I'm personally. I mean, while I'm a big fan of hybrid work, I'm also like think, like in-person interactions are invaluable to have, but we need to be very intentional about who meets, where do they meet and how do they interact, and creating an atmosphere that is really creates those positive social interactions.

Stephan Meier:

Yeah, it's crucial isn't it those positive?

Paul Shrimpling:

social interactions. Yeah, it's crucial, isn't it? We often see in firms that people come into the office because they're mandated to come into the office three days out of five and they behave exactly as if they were at home, working on their computer, and it's like hang on a second. Maybe we're missing the point here. There's the social capital of people innovating, talking, thinking, creating together to improve processes, services to clients, all sorts of things. Is the social work that you know. It's interesting, isn't it? You know we've got Amazon, have mandated everybody back in the office, and yet probably that's not building autonomy, is it, I guess? But it's also requiring people to do what they could have done at home in the office, for no benefit to the individual or the business either. It's doing the right work in the right place at the right time, I guess, is what you're saying.

Stephan Meier:

I completely agree and I think like what is important to think about and I love this, what you just said I once had one of my executives in a session who also had a three-day in the office and two-day at home, and he was like complaining. You know, when they come in, they have coffee all the time. And I asked him so is this a good or a bad thing? And he said like well, that's obviously a bad thing and it's like well, if they come in, you know, you actually the social interactions are really important. I mean, otherwise, if they're on zoom calls, I mean they can do that from home, and but I think the important piece is like to thinking about not jobs, but different tasks. So what are like different tasks that I'm doing that are important, and some of those tasks require in-person interaction. You know, like you talked about brain, like figuring out something together, you know, being in a room and like having the energy and really solving a big problem maybe needs kind of to being together. Mentorship needs obviously some person. I mean that might be able to be in Zoom, but it needs a social interaction.

Stephan Meier:

Now we're not doing 40 hours of mentorship, we're not doing 40 hours a week of learning or even those brainstorm activities. And then there are certain tasks. I'm working on a report, I'm just cramming out the numbers, I'm figuring out whatever, which I'm just me, and there actually I don't want to interrupt. I mean, I love you, paul and Doug, but I don't want to talk with you on those hours or even days. And now you need to and I think it's important what you said the in-person days need to look very differently than the at-home days. We need to now shift the tasks so that we make sure that on the day where we're at home, you know you can do the work wherever you want and whenever you want.

Stephan Meier:

Actually, you know, if you're a morning person, which I am, you know you can do the work wherever you want and whenever you want.

Stephan Meier:

Actually, you know, if you're a morning person, which I am, you know I get up really early and I'm very productive in the morning, not so much in the afternoon and definitely not at night, but other people are. So if they do their best work after nine, which I personally think, like after nine, is like I'm starting to think about going to bed, um, and I'm definitely not productive, but others are, and so like and if for certain tasks, that's perfectly fine if they do those work. For others, it's important for us to be together in person, and for others, it's important that we're maybe available at the same time. You know, because I might need your input. Uh, I might need I might not need you in the same room, paul or dog, but I need to like connect with you and firms need to be deliberate about that and say, like you know, every whatever on thursdays between 10 and 2, you have to be available. You just have to be on Slack, on Zoom or whatever it is, and on certain days you have to come in.

Paul Shrimpling:

And on those days where we come in, we do all the team working. The figuring difference isn't there between you know, in that monitoring, controlling space around the inputs, you know the number of hours you invest, as opposed to a focus on the outputs of the work, which suggests that there's a level of trust there. Doug and I work with our team. We have no idea what they're doing at this moment in time. Doug and I don't care because we know every week the outputs are there. We don't worry about it and we know that accountants really struggle with that because we're in the autonomy space. We're in the trust space, but also outside of that, there's got to be a time and a place and the right people in the room if we're coaching or mentoring or trying to work out how to improve a process or all those social interactions or, by the way, just have a cup of coffee.

Stephan Meier:

Yeah, no, that's absolutely right and I think you're hitting it spot on that. We need to like the performance evaluation has to be on outputs, like if I evaluate with like your butt is in the chair, I mean then, yeah, then you need to butt in the chair, uh, if that's how you monitor. But but if you, if you really do the right thing, if you evaluate performance by output, I don't care whether you do your working downward facing dog, as long as you do your work. And I think that's an important piece.

Stephan Meier:

And again, like I had this funny interaction with like one other executive who was like you know. He said, like you know, when they're at home, they go shopping. And I said, like what do you think they do when they're in the office? Yeah, and it's like, well, it's like they go shopping as well. It's called online shopping, it's like browsing on Amazon. I mean, just because their butt is in the chair doesn't mean that they're actually working. And if you shift, as you said, your performance evaluation from not evaluating inputs but actually outputs, then you can be much more flexible.

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, yeah, then you can be much more flexible, yeah, yeah. And then we're into outputs around team improvement if you're a manager. Outputs around how we're delivering for customers. Outputs around what's the knock-on impact in terms of the kpi. Output kpis for the business. And we're having grown up challenging conversations. Um, and I know absolutely doug's got a phrase for this. It's, you know, conversations that are kind, not conversations that are easy. Have I got that right, doug?

Doug Aitken:

oh yeah, yeah, kind not nice not nice conversations, not nice ones yeah, yeah yeah, so so you've unpacked.

Paul Shrimpling:

Then you know the working together works, uh, just right. Tasks, autonomy and purpose, and we opened a um, a Pandora's box conversation around. Is this innate or is it learned? From a manager and leadership point of view, what have you learned in that space?

Stephan Meier:

I think what we learned and I'm doing now more research on this is if you think about those different skills or what leaders need to do. If you think about those different skills or like what leaders need to do what, when you ask people what is more innate versus what can you learn? There is a much more fixed mindset about some of those social skills. You know. If I ask you like empathy, you know, is this like a personality trait or can you learn being empathetic? And I think much more people. And then I ask, well, generative AI? You know, can you learn about generative AI or is this a personality trait? And people say, well, I can learn that. I mean, I might not be a coder, you know, my personality is not I'm not an engineer but like I can learn more of that.

Stephan Meier:

Why like empathy or communication style? That's like you know they're just born leaders and I think that's just not true. They might be different. You know there might be some who have a headstart. They're very charismatic and they might be very empathetic, but it's something you can actually learn and I think that's what you guys do. You know there's like helping leaders to be better, but you're working a little bit against this innate presumption that, like some of those soft skills, you can't learn as much skills you, you, you can't learn as much.

Stephan Meier:

It's like this fixed versus growth mindset, and there is much more of a fixed mindset when it comes to those leadership skills than it is about technical and but it's like the research shows it's just not true. You can actually learn to be empathetic. You can learn to be a good leader. You can learn to listen. You can learn to listen. You can learn to communicate. You can learn to be kind. To come back to Doug's quote, and I think that's important for leaders to realize- kind of reinforced that and just um, and it seemed relatively basic.

Doug Aitken:

Do you want to talk about that in terms of what these leaders learned, what not to do?

Stephan Meier:

more than what to do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there was a study it was a large um randomized control trial, so a large ab test baby with managers in turkish firms. Uh, they, they tried to tackle kind of the problem that there was a lot of toxic work cultures in those firms.

Stephan Meier:

This is not Turkey specific, this is, you know, this is across the globe, but the setting was just in Turkey and they put middle managers through like workshops where they basically learned, you know, being kind. You know they learned how to have the right language, you know how to actually use communication styles that are not offensive, that are respectful, thinking about reflecting and being kind of empathetic. They did that also with like workshops where they, you know, simulated some interactions, you know difficult conversations that they had and the impact was just tremendous on how it really affected the culture in those organizations. You know it's like psychological safety increased. You know how the team members thought about the leaders as like, as team members, you know as colleagues that they could trust.

Stephan Meier:

And what is also interesting, going back to that remote work discussion we had, you know the proportion of employees who wanted to come back to the office, you know increased by six percentage points, which just shows that you know I don't want to go to the office. The office sucks, but if the atmosphere is actually better then it makes much more sense. So they really trained them on those leadership skills and a lot of it had to do with empathy, being kind, being respectful and having the right language, and it had a tremendous positive effect on the culture Brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, it's simple stuff though, isn't it, stefan? There's nothing you know. There's just a you know respect the people, whether they're customers or whether you're team members. Respect your manager.

Stephan Meier:

Respect the process and we'll probably end up running a better business. Is it not just that simple? It's not easy, not easy.

Stephan Meier:

It is simple, but not easy because, like we're all busy, you know there's a lot of stuff happening as you're doing busy things, yeah yeah, and like the problem a little bit is, like you know, I'm a very, very chill person if, like, everything goes well and they have a lot of time and I'm rested and whatever. But if we're hitting deadlines or we're missing the deadline, they're stressful, then suddenly that you know kindness kind of might take a back burner and so still in those, in those situations where pressure is on to be, then still this empathetic leader, that's much harder and kind of creates a more systematic change.

Paul Shrimpling:

Yeah, stefan, we're coming to the end of the discussion, I'm afraid, because Doug and I could probably sit here and unpack, if you were willing, more and more and more of this, just because I think you know everyone's seeking a competitive advantage. You know you call it a competitive edge and that's a moving target. You know customer expectations are changing, team expectations are changing, so we as managers, leaders, have to change our skills and therefore we're right back into those just right tasks again from a leadership management point of view. Right back into those just right tasks, again from a leadership management point of view. But I'm curious, looking back on this wide ranging conversation, from the deep insights from your book, the Employee Advantage, I'm wondering what one thing stood out from this conversation that you think we could should bring emphasis to, or that's made you think slightly differently, or that you think is of real deep value that we should just shine a light on yeah, I mean there there were many.

Stephan Meier:

First of all, I mean I really enjoyed the conversation with with the two of us. It was tremendously insightful. I mean, I think, like and this whole notion of like you know, listening to your employees as well, that we talked about throughout, in many of those aspects, a little bit involving the workforce and getting you know, getting to know them better, um, but also like really taking the inputs from them is such an important part, uh, the listening. And then you know, as, as you mentioned before as well, dog, about like share. That also means like share, not only listening, but also sharing, you know, being transparent. What is the purpose? Working with them about like what's, what's the strategy, what's the goal? Um, because only then you get like the right inputs as well. You need to involve them as part of the team and not like we're the executive team and then they're the people below, and I think that's such an important part of transforming organizations.

Paul Shrimpling:

It's deep curiosity, isn't it around? What's going on within the team? Member, doug, what one thing has flashed in your head, or one thing that you you'd want us to shine a light on in this conversation with stefan?

Doug Aitken:

I've got to narrow it down to one I'm sorry, you know you're one, take away we didn't have time to dig into, uh, today actually, stefan, but I was reminded of it reading the book and you did touch on it earlier. But this equation about happiness equaling innovation where you have to have happy, engaged employees to encourage innovation and it just reminded me of it because last week I had a firm lamenting why employees weren't coming forward with ideas. We had a suggestion box, we did this, we did that and nothing was coming forward, but also, in the same breath, wouldn't accept that there was a cultural deficiency in his firm that stopped that from happening. So I would have loved to have delved into that with you, but it was just that reminder that you need to create the right environment for people to feel safe enough to want to speak up.

Stephan Meier:

yeah, you obviously need to have me on the show again and then we can continue that conversation because it's important.

Stephan Meier:

Then we also get a little bit into the tactics how to actually do that, because I mean, quite frankly, I have, we have this problem, and you know, my own organization, the columbia business school, you know, has that issue as well. Like you know, the staff members are not coming forward with ideas. It's a little bit of cultural problem, um, why they don't. And so one can then think about like tactics on actually how to make that happen, which are then much more detailed. You know, how do we actually start changing the culture to make sure that people feel safe to share?

Paul Shrimpling:

yeah, but that's for um, that's for the next time for me and it's you know it's a message that doug is is repeating on a regular basis, but it's really struck home to me today about um. As leaders and managers, we have to be intentional. It doesn't happen by accident. It's getting the right people in the right place, with the right cadence or right time in order to generate those conversations that create that safe space, that psychological safety that gives the team a voice, demonstrates that you trust them, helps them achieve a piece of progress today or this week, which ultimately and I think Doug made the point very well earlier is that let's see those moments in your diary. If they're in your diary, the chances are they might happen. Stefan, I can't thank you enough for investing so much of your valuable time in this what, for us, is a profoundly valuable discussion, really really appreciate you being so open and candid and sharing some really insightful stuff. Thank you so, so open and uh and candid and sharing some really insightful stuff.

Stephan Meier:

Thank you so much for having me. Uh, paul and dog, it was a great pleasure to be on on the show and hopefully some of the insights we we discussed here are going to be valuable. Yeah, we will and we'll make sure you're actually creating a better workplace.

Doug Aitken:

I mean, that's the goal and a better world as a consequence To humanize, humanizing.

Stephan Meier:

you know, I call it humanizing work, you call it humanizing numbers.

Paul Shrimpling:

Same thing, yeah, same space. Absolutely there's a magic in there, for sure there is. Absolutely. Loved it. Thank you, stefan. In this discussion with Stefan Meyer, we've been unpacking an awful lot of insight, strategies, ideas, skills even that help you build the human skills into your accounting firm, which is exactly what we do with like-minded, ambitious accountants coming into the Accountants Growth Academy. Ambitious accountants coming into the Accountants Growth Academy. If you want to join in, go to the show notes and you'll find a link to the Accountants Growth Academy. You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms. At humanizethenumbersonline, you can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a podcast discussion with Hayley Plimley, marketing and Communications Director at fast-growing firm DGH. If you want to hear more, please go to your favourite podcast platform or go to humanizethenumbersonline. How do you coordinate and work out, uh, how your month's gonna look or how your quarter's gonna look, hayley?

Speaker 4:

uh, I think planning ahead's the the biggest one. So, um, having a plan for the year and then breaking that down into quarters it is is key, but as a department. So we've got a clear split within the team an internal marketing team and an external marketing team. So for me it's quite challenging because I have to wear two hats most days and flip between from one conversation to another. But each member of my team, from a marketing perspective, has got their own focus. They've got a clear job description and remit around what they are accountable for, so that they know each day what they're coming in to do. And there's a lot of change day to day so you can put a plan in place but you've got to adapt again. I've learned that very quickly. Things change fast in this industry. But if you've got some clear focus areas you can come back to and it's just around knowing what to say yes to and what to say no to, because it it can be easy to be pulled in lots of directions.